Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

Ron Resnick said:
Do you think the sound waves can tell the difference, and that they behave differently, whether they are bouncing off polyester on a couch versus polyester on an acoustic panel?
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Let me answer your question with another question. Do you think electrical audio signal in an interconnect can tell the difference and they behave differently, whether they are traveling inside a copper or silver conductor? There are some cartridges which you can choose copper, silver or gold coils. Same windings, same impedance, same cartridge but they sound very different. Why then?

What about powercords, only electric passes through and no audio signal. Why a silver powercord behaves differently than copper one. What is the silver cable sound signature people are talking about?
 
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The biggest acoustic improvement was when i bought a new toupee, "natural" hair of coarse !IMG_2992.png
 
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mtemur said:
Let me answer your question with another question. Do you think electrical audio signal in an interconnect can tell the difference and they behave differently, whether they are traveling inside a copper or silver conductor? There are some cartridges which you can choose copper, silver or gold coils. Same windings, same impedance, same cartridge but they sound very different. Why then?

What about powercords, only electric passes through and no audio signal. Why a silver powercord behaves differently than copper one. What is the silver cable sound signature people are talking about?
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This is a different topic and not analogous to your belief about surface material on furnishings versus surface material on acoustic panels.
 
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mtemur said:
Rockwool is mainly used behind drywalls. Do you suggest it’s widely used inside room without any cover? BTW any furnishing made from synthetic material is equally bad IMO.
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I have rockwool behind my wood diffusers
 
I'm starting my speaker set up in a few days. The first thing I was told to do was put the speakers in the room and try to find a spot where I get the best sound stage. From there start assessing decay. Then start addressing frequency. Does this sound about right.
 
mtemur said:
I think you’re missing the point between synthetic room treatments and furnishings made from organic or natural materials. It is not about which is more effective. I’m sure room treatments are more effective even though they also operate on other than target frequencies. The problem (or my problem) with synthetic room treatments is their sound signature. They correct some problematic frequencies but turn every instrument sounding like they’re made out of sponge, thin and un-involving. Suck the life out like chemotherapy. That’s what I think.
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I think that what you are saying might be possible however I think that which products you choose and how makes all the difference in the result. Some stick foam or fiberglass panels all over the place and not used correctly or in the proper amount or position. DIY can be very dangerous to SQ
 
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I can say this. I have a recent room that was completed that the client could not listen to his system in the space . It was horrific. He had moved into this new home and the system was just not useable in the new space. We had the room modeled and treated with Art Novion products and the room and the system is one of the best I have ever heard post treatment and final set up.
Could the client have done this on his own? could he have done it with furniture? would sticking stuff in certain places be effective? who knows the result but what I do know is choosing one thing or a couple of things and assuming that is correct is in my opinion why many talk badly amount treating a space.
 
Kingrex said:
I'm starting my speaker set up in a few days. The first thing I was told to do was put the speakers in the room and try to find a spot where I get the best sound stage. From there start assessing decay. Then start addressing frequency. Does this sound about right.
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Rex
I would say the first thing to do is get a listening position and speaker position where bass is the most even. Fundamental room modes are not going to change with acoustic devices.
Then tame bass reverb as it masks the info you need to refine clarity, sound stage etc

Phil
 
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Kingrex said:
I'm starting my speaker set up in a few days. The first thing I was told to do was put the speakers in the room and try to find a spot where I get the best sound stage. From there start assessing decay. Then start addressing frequency. Does this sound about right.
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Don't agree at all.
try this for example

this will give you an excellent start.
 
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The Wilson guy rambles so much he lost me.
I need to set them in the room, them listen. Sounds like a start point for me.
 
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You can also find a set up video from Sumiko that works as well.
The Wilson guy is Dave Wilson and this is the system that they "teach" to their dealers and the system that people like Peter McGrath etc. use. This system and the system from Sumiko are both good at finding the right spot to set the speakers up. The missing poing to all of them is whether the person doing it knows what to listen for. That is the experience part.
What you are basically trying to do Rex is find a neutral zone to start the process. This is not hard to identify but very important.
If you can get to those two zones to place your speakers in the rest of the process will be easier and you will have a decent foundational starting point. Just my two cents.
 
I started with the Cardas formulas and read their materials. It's free and has good info. Cardas speaker placement

I moved the speakers to the computed position and then started trial/error piecewise refinement. Marked the floor or carpet with blue painters tape and move the speakers apart 1" at a time, then back/forth 1" at a time, then adjusted toe in. For listening to assess the sound, I use Ella Fitzgerald on Verve (Let No Man Write My Epitaph). When Ella's voice has the head tone, chest tone, and projects like a column of air at the microphone, then it is getting really close to good speaker position. I also use a frequency sweep and measure dB levels of low bass. After that, I listen to other recordings of symphonic music for layering and depth of soundstage - and keep trying small adjustments of the speaker position. Following that is some jazz tracks with good recordings of drums to make sure it is tight and has no overhang.

Since I have had rectangular rooms, the speakers are usually 6 to 8 feet off the back wall for best sound. May look strange, but sounds great.

It initially took several months of patient adjustment (not daily of course). Now, it takes a week or two since I already know what to listen for. But, I just don't move the speakers now and don't need to.
 
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Elliot G. said:
What you are basically trying to do Rex is find a neutral zone to start the process. This is not hard to identify but very important.
If you can get to those two zones to place your speakers in the rest of the process will be easier and you will have a decent foundational starting point. Just my two cents.
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And that process in short is to use your voice and move away from boundaries until it sounds more like your outside? Decoupled from the room boundaries.

Drop your speakers there and start moving them around.
 
Kingrex said:
And that process in short is to use your voice and move away from boundaries until it sounds more like your outside? Decoupled from the room boundaries.

Drop your speakers there and start moving them around.
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Yes. That is a metod to get a decent starting point. Put your back against the front wall. Have a piece of tape in your hand. Loudly say Two, three, four, five. Initially your voice will likely sound murky. Move your toes an inch or two forward and repeat. You will reach a point where your voice will sound clear and “natural” bend down and place the piece of tape on the floor at your toe. Keep repeating and moving forward. You will reach a point where your voice sounds hollow or echo’y. Put a piece of tape on the floor at your toe. Now put your back against the sidewall. Start between the two pieces of tape you put on the floor. Do as before and mark the two spots. Now use long strips of tape to make a box. Do the same on the other side of the room.

Put your speakers in the middle of the box. A spot can be found inside the box where your speakers will sound good. You can simply experiment. Play some standup bass track like “little room” by Norah jones. Put the speaker at the back of the box and play the intro. Move it forward by an inch and pkay again. Keep going to the other edge. You should hear the zone in the box that is clearest. Do a binary search to narrow the zone to your liking. Do the same thing going sideways. But use something like Lyle Lovett “Garfield’s blackberry blossom”.

Dont forget to toe in so that vocals sound goid.

Easy peasy.
 
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Kingrex said:
The Wilson guy rambles so much he lost me.
I need to set them in the room, them listen. Sounds like a start point for me.
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Agree - and to compound it, he seemed to be adverse to the idea of physics and described it like using devineing rods.

Kingrex said:
And that process in short is to use your voice and move away from boundaries until it sounds more like your outside? Decoupled from the room boundaries.

Drop your speakers there and start moving them around.
Click to expand...

One can also find those places using formulas and start from there.
 
sbnx said:
Yes. That is a metod to get a decent starting point. Put your back against the front wall. Have a piece of tape in your hand. Loudly say Two, three, four, five. Initially your voice will likely sound murky. Move your toes an inch or two forward and repeat. You will reach a point where your voice will sound clear and “natural” bend down and place the piece of tape on the floor at your toe. Keep repeating and moving forward. You will reach a point where your voice sounds hollow or echo’y. Put a piece of tape on the floor at your toe. Now put your back against the sidewall. Start between the two pieces of tape you put on the floor. Do as before and mark the two spots. Now use long strips of tape to make a box. Do the same on the other side of the room.

Put your speakers in the middle of the box. A spot can be found inside the box where your speakers will sound good. You can simply experiment. Play some standup bass track like “little room” by Norah jones. Put the speaker at the back of the box and play the intro. Move it forward by an inch and pkay again. Keep going to the other edge. You should hear the zone in the box that is clearest. Do a binary search to narrow the zone to your liking. Do the same thing going sideways. But use something like Lyle Lovett “Garfield’s blackberry blossom”.

Dont forget to toe in so that vocals sound goid.

Easy peasy.
Click to expand...
This is a pretty low bar test to find the least worst reverberent field in the room around the vocal range ... I don't think it tells you a great deal.
In my living room I have a perforated corrugated metal ceiling with an absorbtion coefficient of 1
My voice sounds exactly the same against the wall or anywhere else in the room ... so it changes with acoustic design.
I guess this assumes no acoustic treatment of the space
A delayed , correlated reverberent tail in the listening area is what you want... that is both clear and lively

Phil
 
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sbnx said:
Yes. That is a metod to get a decent starting point. Put your back against the front wall. Have a piece of tape in your hand. Loudly say Two, three, four, five. Initially your voice will likely sound murky. Move your toes an inch or two forward and repeat. You will reach a point where your voice will sound clear and “natural” bend down and place the piece of tape on the floor at your toe. Keep repeating and moving forward. You will reach a point where your voice sounds hollow or echo’y. Put a piece of tape on the floor at your toe. Now put your back against the sidewall. Start between the two pieces of tape you put on the floor. Do as before and mark the two spots. Now use long strips of tape to make a box. Do the same on the other side of the room.

Put your speakers in the middle of the box. A spot can be found inside the box where your speakers will sound good. You can simply experiment. Play some standup bass track like “little room” by Norah jones. Put the speaker at the back of the box and play the intro. Move it forward by an inch and pkay again. Keep going to the other edge. You should hear the zone in the box that is clearest. Do a binary search to narrow the zone to your liking. Do the same thing going sideways. But use something like Lyle Lovett “Garfield’s blackberry blossom”.

Dont forget to toe in so that vocals sound goid.

Easy peasy.
Click to expand...
I commend your music choices ! :)
 
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