Appreciate the detailed reply. My feeling is you are correct they both result in a highly similar output where effort has been put in.
From a glance it was hard to assign how they might differ. Other than possible injuries.
The [coffee snobs'] espresso thread
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Appreciate the detailed reply. My feeling is you are correct they both result in a highly similar output where effort has been put in.
From a glance it was hard to assign how they might differ. Other than possible injuries.
I’m not seriously thinking about re-acquiring a roaster …. yet. But I can tell that I’m on the trail that leads there.
My grinder recently failed. I had a backup of the same model, but it was a conical burr, and I’ve been thinking I would like to move up to a single dose flat burr. So, I got a unit with a third hp motor, anti static shoot, 64 mm burrs, and it weighs about 20 pounds.
The new grinder begged for a more serious machine. I don’t generally make milk drinks, so I considered a spring lever for a while, but opted instead for a single boiler/heat exchanger unit with an E61 brew head and a pid temperature controller.
It showed up this evening. As late as it was, I had to set it up and try it. I had some single origin light roast Costa Rican beans handy, I let it warm up for an hour with the bottomless portafilter and precision basket, and did some experimenting. I had a perfectly coalesced rat tail flowing on the first trial.
The first doppio was actually as good as my final doppio out of the last machine. But the extraction time for a 2.2 ratio was a bit short. Flavors were there per the expected profile, but skewed toward the darker end. So I dialed the grinder down, and pulled another doppio. The second had an extraction time in the middle of my target time window, and the flavor profile was better balanced.
And so the quest begins again. I’ve had a stable routine for 12+ years, but the new gear exceeded expectations on the second try. Is a roaster back on my agenda? I’ve enjoyed NOT roasting for a decade. But the itch is alive again. Sigh …
Espresso is like vinyl. E61 is like a great tonearm. The flat burr is like a great cartridge. PID control is like a great platter and speed controller. And beans are like a tape properly mastered by a Bob Ludwig level roast. .
Can’t wait for morning …
My grinder recently failed. I had a backup of the same model, but it was a conical burr, and I’ve been thinking I would like to move up to a single dose flat burr. So, I got a unit with a third hp motor, anti static shoot, 64 mm burrs, and it weighs about 20 pounds.
The new grinder begged for a more serious machine. I don’t generally make milk drinks, so I considered a spring lever for a while, but opted instead for a single boiler/heat exchanger unit with an E61 brew head and a pid temperature controller.
It showed up this evening. As late as it was, I had to set it up and try it. I had some single origin light roast Costa Rican beans handy, I let it warm up for an hour with the bottomless portafilter and precision basket, and did some experimenting. I had a perfectly coalesced rat tail flowing on the first trial.
The first doppio was actually as good as my final doppio out of the last machine. But the extraction time for a 2.2 ratio was a bit short. Flavors were there per the expected profile, but skewed toward the darker end. So I dialed the grinder down, and pulled another doppio. The second had an extraction time in the middle of my target time window, and the flavor profile was better balanced.
And so the quest begins again. I’ve had a stable routine for 12+ years, but the new gear exceeded expectations on the second try. Is a roaster back on my agenda? I’ve enjoyed NOT roasting for a decade. But the itch is alive again. Sigh …
Espresso is like vinyl. E61 is like a great tonearm. The flat burr is like a great cartridge. PID control is like a great platter and speed controller. And beans are like a tape properly mastered by a Bob Ludwig level roast. .
Can’t wait for morning …
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Good one.
Does everything make a difference?
How about something like a rhodium filter basket with micropolished holes in a special guru approved pattern?
Good one.
Does everything make a difference?
How about something like a rhodium filter basket with micropolished holes in a special guru approved pattern?
Ok, here you go:
https://caffewerks.com/products/baristapro-nanotech-by-ims-18-gram-espresso-filter-basket
Great baskets btw, especially if you have a large flat burr grinder they allow very fine grinds, but most grinders will make too many fines.
I replaced my spring lever machine with a simple full manual. I initially bought it because a good friend owns the business and a portable machine seemed interesting, but it ended up making better espresso than my machine. It holds up to the high-$ machines found in good coffee shops too.
No doubt the basket makes a difference… the grinder really does too. If the grinder has too broad a profile on the fine end, a great basket can save it… but it can’t hide the taste.Ok, here you go:
https://caffewerks.com/products/baristapro-nanotech-by-ims-18-gram-espresso-filter-basket
Great baskets btw, especially if you have a large flat burr grinder they allow very fine grinds, but most grinders will make too many fines.
I replaced my spring lever machine with a simple full manual. I initially bought it because a good friend owns the business and a portable machine seemed interesting, but it ended up making better espresso than my machine. It holds up to the high-$ machines found in good coffee shops too.
Lots of play value. Today I have a roast that appears to be short on good flavor, but really high on buzz. It may be the potato vodka of espressos.
Regarding the Forge, I like the fact that you have so much control over the pressure profile. It’s like a modern, less complex, version of the La Pavoni line. I think the last frontier in espresso machines will be computer control of the pull’s pressure profile. It’s not just peak pressure that matters. It is both the integral and the derivative. When PID programmable pumps are offered, I’ll have to try one.
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I got you on that too!
Espresso Machines for Serious Baristas
Italy, meet Seattle. Our goal is the espresso quality you get from Italian professional espresso machines such as La Marzocco, but in a machine made for your home. By applying the engineering chops of Seattle's high tech community, we aim to extend the vision of what an espresso machine can be...
decentespresso.com
A friend has the Decent machine and it's really great, it'll make adjustments based on flow rate. With a full manual you can make fine adjustments based on feel and it's possible the lower temps of the Forge vs a typical machine might be a good thing. I fill the Forge with boiling water using a blank basket used for backflushing to warm it up. The Decent machine is the iPhone of espresso though, it's compelling.
Another thing to try if you have a big flat-burr is a super-lungo, around 4:1 or even longer... there are no fines to make it bitter. I have a Mahlkoenig EK43 with SSP espresso burrs and Titus carrier, it's massive overkill but a coffee roasting business was selling it for a price I couldn't refuse. I have yet to get into roasting though, someday I will...
I love my Decent machine. Upgraded grinder this spring to Kafatek Flat Max which was a game changer. Highly recommended!
The Decent Machine looks pretty decent. Lots of play value there. Lots of potential for unlocking bean secrets.I got you on that too!
Espresso Machines for Serious Baristas
Italy, meet Seattle. Our goal is the espresso quality you get from Italian professional espresso machines such as La Marzocco, but in a machine made for your home. By applying the engineering chops of Seattle's high tech community, we aim to extend the vision of what an espresso machine can be...
A friend has the Decent machine and it's really great, it'll make adjustments based on flow rate. With a full manual you can make fine adjustments based on feel and it's possible the lower temps of the Forge vs a typical machine might be a good thing. I fill the Forge with boiling water using a blank basket used for backflushing to warm it up. The Decent machine is the iPhone of espresso though, it's compelling.
Another thing to try if you have a big flat-burr is a super-lungo, around 4:1 or even longer... there are no fines to make it bitter. I have a Mahlkoenig EK43 with SSP espresso burrs and Titus carrier, it's massive overkill but a coffee roasting business was selling it for a price I couldn't refuse. I have yet to get into roasting though, someday I will...
The whole quest is about extraction of flavor without the negative components.
As much time and money as goes into coffee beans and prep, you would think the mysteries had all been solved. But it’s not the case.
Yeah, my friend with the Decent also has a Flat Max. It's pretty similar in output to my EK43, like a home version. I agree these types of grinders are game changers, especially if you're into making espresso with a variety of beans. My grinder is worth 10x what my machine is.
As you should be!
I don't think the machine makes a huge difference, but for milk drinks a double boiler gives you a boiler just for the steamer, so if budget isn't an issue, go double boiler. I'd spend more on the grinder and I'd also recommend trying a few different portafilter baskets. Some have larger or smaller holes, with traditional espresso a more restrictive basket and a courser grind in a good conical grinder will likely work out best. There's a lot of good affordable grinders that have hit the market recently I haven't kept up with, so I have no idea what to recommend.
VST and IMS Precision Baskets: Why You Should Upgrade
A few years ago, we wrote a little ditty posing a question about portafilter baskets and if they matter or not. *Drum Roll* — the conclusion is that portafilter baskets do matter. They matter quite a lot. That said, for most folks making espresso at home, the OEM (original equipment...
clivecoffee.com
People really like the automatic Swiss made Jura models too.
Jura J8 Superautomatic Espresso Machine
Sip on something sweet with the Jura J8 Superautomatic Espresso Machine. A unique addition to Jura's product lineup, the J8 offers the ability to instantly flavor your steamed milk with your favorite flavored syrups.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
But the Silvia has a very strong following. It would please most people who want to make milk drinks.
Silvia Pro X: dual boiler espresso machine for home - Rancilio
Silvia Pro X is the single group dual boiler espresso machine designed for home. Enjoy the pleasure of an espresso whenever you want. Discover Silvia Pro X!
www.ranciliogroup.com
Silvia Pro X (Showroom)
The Rancilio Silvia Pro Espresso Machine provides unmatched Precision and Control. Perfect for Home Use. Get it now on sale at the Best Price. Shop now!
www.chriscoffee.com
Be sure to read the size specs on any of these machines. Many brands are quite tall, so not readily well-suited to under cabinet countertops. You can buy a countertop appliance slider to make moving it for cleaning or water filling easier.
Regarding the double boiler recommendation, it is a good one for a person who wants milk drinks… but it does add cost.
This one has an Italian name, but it’s made in China. It is modestly priced for a two boiler unit, but it is VERY large.
Turin™ Capriccio™ Espresso Machine Turin
Introducing the Turin Capriccio espresso machine for coffee enthusiasts who demand performance at an affordable price. – The Capriccio is a Dual Boiler espresso machine. Key Features: Dual boilers: Not many machines have a dual boiler at this price point. This dual boiler ensures you can brew...
espressooutlet.com
People like this grinder too.
Baratza Vario + Coffee Grinder
The Baratza Vario grinder (Improved 2022 version) is a commercial grade coffee grinder for home or commercial use. Perfect for grinding for any type of coffee preparation. The Baratza Vario grinder has 3 user programmable grind/dosing buttons. It features top quality Swiss 54mm ceramic burrs and...
www.1stincoffee.com
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Wil, good advice from the last couple of posts… I’d ask how often do you plan to use it and are you going to be making coffees for others at the same time every now and then as well.
Going the extra for a double boiler is a good investment if you’ll be doing lattes or capps most often and you want to use it to make more than one coffee sometimes.
A good grinder is the other most important investment… especially if you see yourself using this most every day in the long run.
Going the extra for a double boiler is a good investment if you’ll be doing lattes or capps most often and you want to use it to make more than one coffee sometimes.
A good grinder is the other most important investment… especially if you see yourself using this most every day in the long run.
Milk turns espresso from vinyl into an MP3 file. Readily enjoyed by folks who are marching to a different taste drummer.
Wasabi and soy … I dunno… to my palate, wasabi dominates and hides the subtleties. Soy, can highlight, but it’s also somewhat obscuring.
But to some palates, it is positive. A palate awakener. An Indian friend and I used to get lunch together fairly often. Whenever we would go to a Thai or Chinese restaurant where the menu allowed the customer to order their preferred level of spice, say 1 to 5 stars, he would ask the chef “how do you spice it for yourself?” One time the chef said that on his 1 to 5 scale, he would choose 25. My friend said “that’s what I want.”
When the meal came, and I was enjoying my very spicy level 3, my friend raved about how he’d finally gotten a restaurant meal that tasted right to him. So … different palates are like different ears and hearing. If you know what you like best, who’s to argue?