The [coffee snobs'] espresso thread
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steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
And as Paul Harvey used the day “and now you know the rest of the story“"On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair, warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air."
I had to look that up Steve
My setup has evolved. I make espresso at home and have a Bezzera Strega spring/lever machine. Then a friend of mine started Espresso Forge, so I got one, and now I use it instead of the Strega! There are pros and cons, the Forge is a portable manual machine without a boiler, like a big stainless steel AeroPress, but it makes better espresso than the Strega if you know what you're doing.
A few years go I upgraded my grinder. A Mahlkonig EK43S with SSP espresso burrs and Titus carriers came up for sale and I bought it. The difference vs my decent Compak K3 ~$700 grinder is night and day. The EK is the grandaddy of all high end modern grinders, it's the inspiration for all of them. It makes grinds of uniform size with very few "fines", and this allows for extraction you just can't achieve with normal grinders. The EK is massive overkill though, it's designed for high volume coffee shops and grocery stores. It grinds a shot in just a few seconds. So other high end grinders are basically home versions of the EK43.
EK43
The EK43 has conquered the international coffee specialty industry and rules as the undisputed queen of coffee grinders with high performance, reliability and premium grinding results. Its outstanding grinding profile remains unmatched. The EK43 provides the most even extraction of the...
www.mahlkoenig.us
Eventually I may buy a Strietman machine, it's manual but does have a boiler and a couple other features that make it more straightforward to use vs the Forge, but I think results will be about the same. It'd be mainly for looks and convenience.
Strietman Espresso Machines
Strietman designs and develops bespoke espresso machines and precision coffee tools for the home barista. Premium brewing technology made tactile and tangible. With no concession and no compromise, the Strietman CT2 manual lever espresso machine pushes for radical innovation and returns espresso mak
www.strietman.net
Anyways, it's been said many times before, but spend all your money on the grinder and the machine doesn't matter nearly as much, in fact a manual espresso machine has the greatest potential of them all. I can make better espresso than a vast majority of coffee shops at this point. But there are some that really know what they are doing too. EK43s are not uncommon in high end espresso shops. Shops need the fancy machines for volume and repeatability, not quality.
Man, you guys are serious! We just moved from years with Nespresso over to a very simple, coffee-only Jura. And we buy whole medium roast beans now since the Jura grinds and makes coffee at once. It is better. And what's crazy is that by buying the simplest Jura and 'good coffee' whole bean...the math is simple: every 6 months we could throw it all away and buy another Jura...and break-even with how much it costs to buy those Nespresso capsules (vs the whole bean coffee) during the same 6 month period.
Forget the fact that we think it tastes better...the savings is incredible!
Forget the fact that we think it tastes better...the savings is incredible!
Dave, you are no doubt familiar with the "Robot" that began life as a purpose built machine.
Is it possible for you to comment on how these two devices differ in their output alone? The espresso.
Ever made coffee in a sock.
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@LL21 they are way ahead of me on gear too.
I make a quad every morning and that’s my dose for the day.
When I first started drinking espresso, I would buy Charbucks (aka Starbucks) Espresso Roast beans, grind them in a blade grinder, and brew them in cheap machine with inconsistent T and P.
My journey took me through many roasts, brands, grinders and machines, until I found sources of green beans and bought my own roaster. I started specializing in very light roasts of Central American Arabica beans … my preference is to get close to “first crack.”
Eventually, it seemed like another obsessive hobby where the differences are discernible but not life changing.
I sold off the high end gear, and went back to a middle level. I quit roasting after discovering how consistently I liked Dunkin’s original whole bean variety.
The roast and the grinder are huge factors in what you get out of a bean. If the roast’s not consistent and the grind’s not dialed in, disappointment will visit you much of the time. The water is important too. And I’m not a fan of automated machines. I want to control things myself.
Occasionally when I travel, I encounter a truly great coffee shop where they beat my home brew … but not often.
I make a quad every morning and that’s my dose for the day.
When I first started drinking espresso, I would buy Charbucks (aka Starbucks) Espresso Roast beans, grind them in a blade grinder, and brew them in cheap machine with inconsistent T and P.
My journey took me through many roasts, brands, grinders and machines, until I found sources of green beans and bought my own roaster. I started specializing in very light roasts of Central American Arabica beans … my preference is to get close to “first crack.”
Eventually, it seemed like another obsessive hobby where the differences are discernible but not life changing.
I sold off the high end gear, and went back to a middle level. I quit roasting after discovering how consistently I liked Dunkin’s original whole bean variety.
The roast and the grinder are huge factors in what you get out of a bean. If the roast’s not consistent and the grind’s not dialed in, disappointment will visit you much of the time. The water is important too. And I’m not a fan of automated machines. I want to control things myself.
Occasionally when I travel, I encounter a truly great coffee shop where they beat my home brew … but not often.
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I seem to remember Ked and I, mostly Ked surveying his town, suggesting a few trial purchases.
To bring closure here would you care to suggest the general direction the two of you have settled upon for beans. The suggestion always was you intended following SW path through Jura and unfussy purchases from that overly popular online retailer.
An anecdote tying espresso to the pod concept.
I don’t know if this is a true story, but it was shared by an old head who’d spent his life in espresso and espresso lore. Everything else he ever shared proved true.
He said that the first espresso machine was invented so that the vendor could make a quick cup “on demand.” No coffee sitting around getting stale. No wasted beans.
Another comment- those of you who roast your own know this - roasting coffee stinks. It smells nothing like the delicious smell of brewing roasted beans.
And last, the Charbucks approach to roasting, followed by many to get well into second crack and release oils, is favored for “coffee flavored beverages.” Once you start adding dairy products, flavors, and toppings, it’s a different animal.
My preference is for a plain old light roasted, espresso ground, slow growing, bean prepared as straight espresso. I just finished this morning’s quad (four shots) and now on to exercise. YMMV
I can't stand Nespresso. I make my own v60 and thing is each year different countries have different crops. Brazil or Columbia might be good one season but not the next. This season Peru seems good, at least the one I am sourcing from Extract Coffee Roasters.
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Wow. I just discovered this thread. I have been roasting my own and pursuing coffee (espresso) with the same passion as audio for 20 years. I have two audio friends here who share the same sicknesses (espresso and audio). Following are photos of my roaster (in action this morning), my rig (ECM Synchronika and Ceado E37SD) and my latest - the Auto-Comb WDT tool (which was like adding laszlo's adapters and new tubes to my horizon - highly recommended). I look forward to hopefully contributing here.
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I've been roasting my own small batches for 40 years - I got started when I was in the Congo roasting beans in a pot over a fire. I love the ritual of it, fine tuning the roast, and always having a fresh roast. I get my green beans from SweetMarias.com - they travel around the world to find the best beans from small farms. Great company.
I also do pourover with a Kalita Wave. It's nice to try beans in both espresso and pourover, although I've been neglecting my Kalita since I got the Espresso Forge a little while ago.
Here's this morning's Forge shot, an Ethiopian Hambela roasted at a local shop called Otis. It's between 4:1 and 5:1 ratio extraction, works great for lighter roasted single origin beans, this kind of shot has been nicknamed EKspresso after the EK43 grinder.
I can't compete with the fancy machines, but I have worn out two Saeco Vienna superautomatics over the years and now use the Philips version. I'm fond of odd machines, and sometimes use a napolitana/cuccumella, a Cona or a moka pot (especially good for breakfast coffee diluted with hot milk). I agree it is well worth roasting your own green beans. I started out using a popcorn popper, and quickly moved on to the predecessor of this machine:
However, it is really a summertime only activity, unless you like filling your house with not entirely fragrant smoke! The machine does a surprisingly good job for something so small and relatively cheap. I can buy green beans for $13CDN/lb with free shipping for a $100 order, so I buy 10lb at a time. We have all learned that freshly ground coffee is best, but combine that with using beans roasted yesterday (24 hours for off-gassing) and you may find that you can get delicious coffee even from a humble machine!
However, it is really a summertime only activity, unless you like filling your house with not entirely fragrant smoke! The machine does a surprisingly good job for something so small and relatively cheap. I can buy green beans for $13CDN/lb with free shipping for a $100 order, so I buy 10lb at a time. We have all learned that freshly ground coffee is best, but combine that with using beans roasted yesterday (24 hours for off-gassing) and you may find that you can get delicious coffee even from a humble machine!
Ked and I did trade notes, and Extract Coffee is where we both have enjoyed whole bean coffee for some time. More recently, on my side, we found Amoret in Nottinghill: https://amoret.co.uk/collections/our-beans
I think by a margin, I prefer some of their coffees and thus order from them these days. But both make good medium roast whole beans, and imho it comes down to the particularly bean/mix more than the maker. I really like Extract, but some of their fruitier coffee beans taste downright odd to me, and no doubt there are other 'lesser makers' out there who happen to have a blend that I would really like.
I had pointed you to Amoret too
. Amoret can be good but it is seasonal. When they had the Columbia Geisha a few years ago it was the best. But they don't get as many crops as Extract so some times they go through a lean phase. I had the Ethiopia from Amoret recently. Extract keeps rotating with more and coffee is seasonal - so you need to change crops.
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Interesting...dont recall that one...thanks! We both clearly have good taste or awful taste...but at least it's the same! My wife discovered Amoret after walking by and liked it.I had pointed you to Amoret too
Yes, Amoret is more limited, but so far so good. Frankly, i dont think one can go wrong either way.
A town of many small villages, indeed.
Good to hear all have reached accord.
I've shifted ever so slightly closer to WBF co-owner Steve's buying habits. Educated guesses where roaster beat taster. Best example was scandalously sale priced $2/lb Ethiopia that perfumed strongly enough to become ill after a few sips (most likely before). 30 days maturing in a cool dark place was appreciable window onto intent.
Good to hear all have reached accord.
I've shifted ever so slightly closer to WBF co-owner Steve's buying habits. Educated guesses where roaster beat taster. Best example was scandalously sale priced $2/lb Ethiopia that perfumed strongly enough to become ill after a few sips (most likely before). 30 days maturing in a cool dark place was appreciable window onto intent.
Dave, you are no doubt familiar with the "Robot" that began life as a purpose built machine.
Is it possible for you to comment on how these two devices differ in their output alone? The espresso.
Ever made coffee in a sock.
Sorry I missed this! I've seen the Robot and some other similar devices. I assume it's very similar to the Forge, but maybe the design provides better leverage, the Forge does take a decent amount of force to achieve 9 bars. It's not too much, but I guess that's relative. I think some may find it requires too much force to easily use.
I'd expect the results to be identical as long as they can both be preheated similarly, that's the big issue with both of them vs machines with boilers. OTOH boilers take some time to heat up, some machines require 45 min to get to ideal temps, while a kettle can get boiling very quickly. With the Forge, I put it on top of the kettle w/o it's basket, it fits on a std gooseneck kettle you'd use for pourover nicely. Then I further preheat it by using a blank portafilter basket used for backflushing. I also use a stainless steel mesh cover on top of the basket so when you pour in the hot water it doesn't disturb the puck (link below).
Seems like art of Espresso and HiFi go hand in hand. Not that I'm the one exercising this but once i visited Herve Deletraz (DartZeel) at his home and was treated by probably best espresso ever. Some crazy machine, grinder, etc., etc., etc.,...