“a” with expert assistance … it’s highly unlikely your issues are being caused by the brand of your sub. REW is a terrific tool, and a lot better than no measurement, but isn’t as good as having an expert on your side.
To Sub Or Not To Sub, That Is The Question
- Thread starter Mr. Miyagi
- Start date
Find an expert. Changing to REL or another brand of sub won't help the problem.
Or even might make it worse if adjustability is not as good as it is with JL Audio subs. As I reported, that adjustability was the essential life line that I needed to make the subs work in my not so large room which is, apart from the height, still larger than Danielaruso's room (for dimensions, see the OP vs those in my signature).
Let me try again…
It sounds more like live music. I’ll try to explain what I mean by that. The YG speakers are still the best I’ve heard, huge soundstage both depth and breadth, instruments and voices sound like they should and like they are in the room. They simply play music the way it was meant to be without bringing attention to themselves.
Fast forward to the REL six pack. They are placed behind and slightly to the outside of the YGs. They do not draw attention to themselves. If the lights are off you wouldn’t know they are there. Except - there is now a greater presence and foundation of the music improved weight of instruments, especially lower register. Similarly to when you go to see live music and the overall energy which is in the room from the music.
The YGs are biamped with the top module being driven by Kraft 400 class A mono blocks and the bass modules being driven by Symphonic Line RG4 class A/B mono blocks. The RELs are fed from the (bass) amps as recommended.
As mentioned, room is acoustically treated.
The last couple of days I have been listening to old favorites with a heightened appreciation for the music and musicians, it really is as if they are in the room.
I’m still tweaking the. RELs.
That sounds amazing / anyone else do a rel six pack? It probably does help my cause with wife and room aesthetics but if it creates a truly magical experience it could be an option. Never heard of a JL four or six pack
Fantastic. Thank you very much! Another great element of feedback we can file away as we think about the foundation of the system.
Unless you have crazy-priced main speakers, the cost of adding 6 x RELs seems bonkers to me! My own RELs are £3K each so we talking £18 K for 2 x 3 pack stacks. Wouldn't that pile of cash be more productively spent on better main speakers (perhaps with single subs) or better electronics? I'm having difficulty justifying my own outlay on 2 subs supporting my £34 K main speakers. But how people spend their money is their own decision
Unless you have crazy-priced main speakers, the cost of adding 6 x RELs seems bonkers to me! My own RELs are £3K each so we talking £18 K for 2 x 3 pack stacks. Wouldn't that pile of cash be more productively spent on better main speakers (perhaps with single subs) or better electronics? I'm having difficulty justifying my own outlay on 2 subs supporting my £34 K main speakers. But how people spend their money is their own decision
While a stack of six expensive RELs might be a bit over the top, I think in general I more often see the opposite. Someone with expensive speakers adding relatively cheap subs, and perhaps just a single one.
Adding a pair of powerful, competent subs to say a pair of good standmounts, integrated properly, will easily elevate them so they can compete with expensive towers and as such justify the cost. If the choice was to put 18k in subs vs electronics, it would be a no brainer in my opinion. subs vs speakers depends a bit on what you have already.
Yes, I agree with that. If main speakers are not able to deliver full-range sound, then a pair of subs makes 100% sense. A stack of subs would suggest perhaps that the mains could / should have been improved first - unless money no object - in which case, why stop at 6?
With my own main speakers that feature twin 12" drivers, actively driven, I'm struggling to get any real benefit from a pair REL S812 subs, although I'm still experimenting with helpful suggestions from members here and elsewhere. These subs feature 12" drivers plus 12" down-firing radiators and I'm sure that adding them to good stand-mounts, or floor-standers that use say 2 x 6 or 7" bass drivers, or most electrostatics / panel speakers, they'd be great and the improvement would be immediate and obvious, as the mains are likely to be bass-shy.
Touché! Although most subs seem to be purchased well before the main speakers are the best available and beyond improvement!
UPDATE
So spent time with JL. I put the CR 1 crossover back in. I am now crossing over the subs at 95hz - and they claim that even though my speakers go down to 30hz - they say that there will be clearer vocals and less distortion with the CR1 and crossing over at 95.
I am keeping an open mind. So far it’s not night and day good or bad / I am going to take it slow and see what I think.
However at least I know everything is dialed in reasonably
So spent time with JL. I put the CR 1 crossover back in. I am now crossing over the subs at 95hz - and they claim that even though my speakers go down to 30hz - they say that there will be clearer vocals and less distortion with the CR1 and crossing over at 95.
I am keeping an open mind. So far it’s not night and day good or bad / I am going to take it slow and see what I think.
However at least I know everything is dialed in reasonably
It is noto exactly a leap of faith ^there^, as the XO can measurably reduce IMD, and also measurably puts less load on the amp.
I think often the challenge here is that some people would always say there is only one correct way to set the CR1. But in reality, it doesn't just depend on the speaker or the JL. It also depends a lot on room acoustic and your JL and speaker placement.
Simplistically, your speakers are going to have more and more distortions when it tries to play lower and lower bass notes even if it officially can play at 30Hz because of the smaller drivers. So with a good sub, you'll technically get less distortions with the larger subwoofer diaphragm. But honestly, I think that's not even all that important. You can train your ears to listen for these distortions but they would generally be dwarfed by room acoustic issues.
With the JL, I think you can run DARO to make sure that it's frequency response is reasonably flat at your listening position but even that is not always a guarantee as EQ cannot fix troughs, only peaks.
Even though ideally you want to run REW, you can actually get away with something more simple like an iPhone and AudioTools because the microphone is relatively well calibrated. By playing pink noise in your system, you can see the speakers' bass frequency response and the subwoofers bass frequency response. Imagine if your speaker has a bass trough at 45-55Hz because of room acoustics but your subwoofer doesn't, then crossing over at 65Hz is going to allow your subwoofer to fix a room acoustic issue related to your speaker position.
Of course, if you have already gotten things running with crossover at 95Hz, what you can do now if you don't feel like measuring is just listen to music for a bit and see how you enjoy it. And then in the future, gradually lower the crossover and see if you get to a particular crossover frequency that works for you.
That is exactly what I am studying.
My first reaction - everything is cleaner and more organized BUT there might be a slight degradation in treble energy and immediacy / it’s like a thin layer of film ….i need more time to validate. For me / like all things in life - it might be a trade off. The problem is I cannot stand not having clear separation and order AND I cannot stand lack of treble energy
My first reaction - everything is cleaner and more organized BUT there might be a slight degradation in treble energy and immediacy / it’s like a thin layer of film ….i need more time to validate. For me / like all things in life - it might be a trade off. The problem is I cannot stand not having clear separation and order AND I cannot stand lack of treble energy
Unfortunately, once you connect your system to CR1, there is no way to completely bypass it. So it is difficult to see whether this lack of separation or lack o treble energy is secondary to lack of transparency of the CR1. I have been told by many different people that CR1 is very transparent. But then there is very transparent and then there is extremely transparent and different people have different sensitivities.That is exactly what I am studying.
My first reaction - everything is cleaner and more organized BUT there might be a slight degradation in treble energy and immediacy / it’s like a thin layer of film ….i need more time to validate. For me / like all things in life - it might be a trade off. The problem is I cannot stand not having clear separation and order AND I cannot stand lack of treble energy
What you can do to see if the issue is related to transparency is to turn off the subwoofer and set the crossover frequency to 30Hz and the slope at 24dB/Oct. That way, it is similar to how you had your speakers setup previously except the CR1 is just cutting off the bass at 30Hz to your speakers. The sound of this would still be different if you play your speakers full range because crossovers don’t start cutting off right at 30Hz so you’ll still lose some low bass and the effect would be different. But you can at least hear if you find there is a difference between the midrange and the treble.
Personally, I think the likelihood of your sonic issues being related to transparency is very low so I probably wouldn’t bother with trying this. I think your time is better spent measuring the frequency response of your speakers and subwoofers at the listening position, and then deciding on the optimal crossover and volume settings.
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