Natural Sound

Kingrex · Jul 14, 2024

I believe I said Peter had inadvertently. When Peter says his Dynamic driver system is pleasing hifi, then he found horns and they are natural. The reader interprets that for the unwritten meaning.

The best horns I have heard are in Portland. A ported 15 inch woofer and a 15 cell wood multicell and a super tweeter. As much as I like it. Every day. Hmmmm. It does put out one of the more realistic sounds I have heard. But you need to also break your perception of tone from scale. Ked does hit the nail on the head when he said part of the loss of popularity is size.. look at the size of Peters corner horns. They arn't even considered large. They are medium sized. My speakers are administeredly larger. Much smaller than Peters. But much larger than say a Magico 3 series or Kharma DB7.

bonzo75 · Jul 14, 2024

Kingrex said:
The best horns I have heard are in Portland. A ported 15 inch woofer and a 15 cell wood multicell and a super tweeter.

I thought previously the best was Howad Swayne's that you heard. How different is that one from the Portland one, and from yours?

bonzo75 · Jul 14, 2024

morricab said:
No, their aural memory is crap.

Aural memory is defined by the system in the room, not by attending live shows. A guy who listens to his system more or less daily will have that signature overwriting the live show signature which he attends very infrequently compared to listening to his system

PeterA · Jul 14, 2024

Al M. said:
"In practice perhaps not so easy." Indeed.

I have heard quite divergent opinions on if a system sounds real or not -- between people who regularly attend concerts of live unamplified music.

Heck, I have even heard different opinions about the sound from people sitting next to each other at a live concert.

Yes, the opinions of people regularly exposed to unamplified music may diverge *less*, but they will still diverge.

We all hear through the filter of our biases, priorities and experiences. There is more subjectivity in audio than some may be willing to concede.

Agreed. And the only opinion that really matters is that of the guy who owns and listens to his system. But if he lacks confidence or is still searching and solicits opinions for guidance, then those opinions may matter, and some more than others.

bonzo75 · Jul 14, 2024

Kingrex said:
I believe that is why horns fell out of favor.

Btw, horns are very popular on the lansing hiritage forum, audio karma, the old audioasylum, some UK and French forums, on facebook there are multiple groups. They were not in favor on forums like WBF where people listening to audiophile music measured things by price, glitz, etc. There is a herd mentality that develops where people regularly read posts and believe that to be the eternal truth.

PeterA · Jul 14, 2024

Kingrex said:
I believe I said Peter had inadvertently. When Peter says his Dynamic driver system is pleasing hifi, then he found horns and they are natural. The reader interprets that for the unwritten meaning.

You must have missed my statement that the cone speakers I heard in Utah were very natural sounding. Incredible in fact. Also my more recent comment that the big Kharma speakers I heard with David’s new turntable was also in a very natural sounding system.

Read page one of this thread again and you will see that natural sound does not depend on speaker typology.

Any claim from me that natural sound requires horns is in your imagination. In fact, my old system with the Magico 3s with Lamm sounded natural by the time I was finished, just not as natural as what I have now.

morricab · Jul 14, 2024

PeterA said:
You must have missed my statement that the cone speakers I heard in Utah were very natural sounding. Incredible in fact. Also my more recent comment that the big Kharma speakers I heard with David’s new turntable was also in a very natural sounding system.

Read page one of this thread again and you will see that natural sound does not depend on speaker typology.

Any claim from me that natural sound requires horns is in your imagination. In fact, my old system with the Magico 3s with Lamm sounded natural by the time I was finished, just not as natural as what I have now.

To me it has always been more about the electronics affecting naturalness...it just so happens that the most natural sounding electronics require high sensitivity speakers, which is usually solved with horns. However, not exclusively. My Horning speakers can deliver very natural sound, are 98dB sensitivity and the only horn is the bass loading. The main driver is a Lowther with the whizzer removed and the tweeter is a paper cone...but it works brilliantly with as little as 2 watts.

Rensselaer · Jul 14, 2024

morricab said:
To me it has always been more about the electronics affecting naturalness...it just so happens that the most natural sounding electronics require high sensitivity speakers, which is usually solved with horns. However, not exclusively. My Horning speakers can deliver very natural sound, are 98dB sensitivity and the only horn is the bass loading. The main driver is a Lowther with the whizzer removed and the tweeter is a paper cone...but it works brilliantly with as little as 2 watts.

Lowthers used to have a low treble bump that caused the shout. AERs look identical but do not shout. Has Lowther fixed that issue or did cutting off the whizzer cone do that, and if the latter, do you fill in the treble with a super tweeter?

PeterA · Jul 14, 2024

morricab said:
To me it has always been more about the electronics affecting naturalness...it just so happens that the most natural sounding electronics require high sensitivity speakers, which is usually solved with horns. However, not exclusively. My Horning speakers can deliver very natural sound, are 98dB sensitivity and the only horn is the bass loading. The main driver is a Lowther with the whizzer removed and the tweeter is a paper cone...but it works brilliantly with as little as 2 watts.

It is interesting that Kingrex would accuse me of dismissing all sorts of speakers, and I never made a statement as definitive as what you just wrote in bold. As I say, many of the claims people attribute to me are simply in their imaginations.

morricab · Jul 14, 2024

Rensselaer said:
Lowthers used to have a low treble bump that caused the shout. AERs look identical but do not shout. Has Lowther fixed that issue or did cutting off the whizzer cone do that, and if the latter, do you fill in the treble with a super tweeter?

Yes, whizzer removal and some other mods remove the shout leaving an amazing mid/high. It still goes to around 12khz (there is no crossover on the driver) and the cone tweeter comes in at 12khz, albeit with a 1st order filter so it is active much lower.

tima · Jul 15, 2024

Rensselaer said:
I subscribe to Tima’s youtube site, he runs JVC’s with horns off Lamm’s and his system sounds brilliant.

Mark, thanks for your nice comment and for subscribing -- much appreciated. Fwiw, the black monoliths are JBL M9500s.

tima

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tima · Jul 15, 2024

bonzo75 said:
Aural memory is defined by the system in the room, not by attending live shows. A guy who listens to his system more or less daily will have that signature overwriting the live show signature which he attends very infrequently compared to listening to his system

I suppose if one's primary listening experience is via reproduced sound with little exposure to live music, one's aural memory may be defined by a system in a room.

The ground of my aural memory predates my owning an audio system. It grew out of playing instruments from an early age and with others up to an orchestra sized group along with marching band and rock bands. My parents did not have a stereo until my later high-school years and then it was single speaker portable from Sears. My aural memory was developed by playing and listening to others play and today is renewed by listening to live performances.

Yes I do have aural memory of my own system today (and some from past systems) and yes I hear that more frequently than concerts, but I give formation precedence to the sound of real music, real instruments which I use as a reference for that system.

Maybe a bit too late for this group but I encourage parents to give their kids music lessons -- the experience can last a lifetime.

bonzo75 · Jul 15, 2024

tima said:
The ground of my aural memory predates my owning an audio system. It grew out of playing instruments from an early age and with others up to an orchestra sized group along with marching band and rock bands.

This is exactly what Bill used to say when he had big Focals and Krell. he used to say he knew about real sound because he played in a semi-professional orchestra as a first trombonist and his dad is an expert pianist, so he grew up listening to piano daily. He kept pooh-poohing horns at the time, having only heard them at shows. Then, he visited General and heard the Vyger RS Mayer Pnoe, overnight sold off his Focal system, and went SET horns, because he realized that this was the real sound of his memory. Moral of the story, only after getting exposed to a better reproduced sound, did his memory trigger and make him realize the fooness of the other system.

If he did not have the background he might not have realized that. Because he had the background he got that quickly. But still, in between, he let the other system get the better of his memories. Kind of like your granny or mom might have cooked good food, but in teens, it is possible to get on a McDonalds diet on a daily basis. It just happens and you lose your way.

hopkins · Jul 15, 2024

bonzo75 said:
This is exactly what Bill used to say when he had big Focals and Krell. he used to say he knew about real sound because he played in a semi-professional orchestra as a first trombonist and his dad is an expert pianist, so he grew up listening to piano daily. He kept pooh-poohing horns at the time, having only heard them at shows. Then, he visited General and heard the Vyger RS Mayer Pnoe, overnight sold off his Focal system, and went SET horns, because he realized that this was the real sound of his memory. Moral of the story, only after getting exposed to a better reproduced sound, did his memory trigger and make him realize the fooness of the other system.

If he did not have the background he might not have realized that. Because he had the background he got that quickly. But still, in between, he let the other system get the better of his memories. Kind of like your granny or mom might have cooked good food, but in teens, it is possible to get on a McDonalds diet on a daily basis. It just happens and you lose your way.

Yet another person, with just as much experience of listening to music, may not experience the same epiphany listening to that system.

tima · Jul 15, 2024

bonzo75 said:
If he did not have the background he might not have realized that. Because he had the background he got that quickly. But still, in between, he let the other system get the better of his memories.

A key for me was recognizing what I wanted and gaining sufficient exposure to realise its possibility. I was part of the way there once I knew Lamm which I had throughout my Wilson days. Exposure to horns took longer. Some of that was a result of being a reviewer as the first two publications I wrote for assigned what I was to write about. (Now I choose, thank you Positive Feedback.) I was exposed to a regular stream of different gear but it was gear chosen for the American audiophile market, which today is still not a robust horn market though that is changing somewhat. Six years ago I started this thread and ended up with a vintage solution thanks to David.

As much as being exposed to equipment possibilities it was the realisation and commitment to use live acoustic music as my reference. Before that it was the organic orange which eventually I grew out of. A sort of coming back to my roots -- not disimilar to what you write about Bill.

tima · Jul 15, 2024

hopkins said:
Yet another person, with just as much experience of listening to music, may not experience the same epiphany listening to that system.

A key is to know what you want. Then it is more of a recognition than an epiphany.
It is a journey for many audiophiles.

John T · Jul 15, 2024

Interpretation of sound/sonics varies wildly person to person. Its as subjective as wine tasting, maybe worse. I've been in the wine world for over 20 years and rarely do I allow tasting with inexperienced participants. Same with listening to my system. Not worth the effort! Explaining the whole concept, I find it exhausting.

bonzo75 · Jul 15, 2024

hopkins said:
Yet another person, with just as much experience of listening to music, may not experience the same epiphany listening to that system.

How are you so deep and philosophical? Did you take a course or do you just think a lot?

hopkins · Jul 15, 2024

bonzo75 said:
How are you so deep and philosophical? Did you take a course or do you just think a lot?

Yes it's taken quite a lot of work. In your case, being an arrogant prick seems to come naturally.

Al M. · Jul 15, 2024

tima said:
A key is to know what you want.

Correct. Yet not everyone, who knows what they want, wants the same. Different listeners have different priorities and perceptions filtered through them.

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