Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

And yet you have been pushing the mythical skills of your turntable dealer as having setup your vinyl system ever since the vintage Japanese deck that he originally sold you …

“ It can be very satisfying to know you did it “

Perhaps I am missing something.

Curious!


David's skills are not mythical. He has superior knowledge and experience, just like others who are good at it. Just ask his clients who hire him to fly around the world to set up systems. Steve W hired him to set up his TechDAS AF1 because the dealer could not do it and to then also set up subsequent cartridges. I have not pushed David's set up skills. There is no need. I have described the results of his work in some posts because I have heard the results directly, but have never shared the process or taught anyone how to do it. It is not my place. David only shares them with friends and customers.

I set up my own cartridges and arms long before I met David Karmeli. I mounted cartridge's in friend's systems too. Then, two or three years ago, David taught me his process when I visited him in Utah the first time. I learned by doing. He walked me through the process while I set up the cartridge and tone arm on his system. He taught me a very specific process that I now use myself.

I left Utah and came back to my house and set up the cartridges on my vintage Japanese Micro Seiki SX 8000II after it arrived. David then came and we reviewed his process and improved the set up slightly. I then got Vladimir Lamm's AS1000 and set up the cartridge and arm to compare to my MS table in my own system. I then bought the AS2000 and made those comparisons, always setting up the arms and cartridges myself. David then came to visit a second time to confirm set up and to hear my new system. I made some slight adjustments based on his comments.

I have quite a few cartridges now and switch between them, always requiring new set up. I actually installed a Colibri yesterday before a friend came over to hear my system. I do not have the knowledge or experience that David has, but I do it myself, and yes, "It can be very satisfying to know you did it."
 
(Emphasis added.)

This is clearly an incorrect statement, Peter. You need to consider the actual arguments made more carefully.

Here is Kingrex' original post:



Here is my interpretation following Rexp's post:





Kingrex agreed, and again makes a statement that proves yours false:

Al, what is false about my statement here:?

We can not really get into the reasons. Rex simply prefers his digital in one room to his vinyl in another room, and from that he makes a general conclusion about vinyl versus digital. It is only his opinion. Others can question the value of the conclusion based on comparing two formats in different rooms I suppose, but it's Rex's system and he is happy, so all is good.

1. Rex does prefer his digital in one room to his vinyl in another room.
2. He does make a general conclusion about vinyl versus digital. Rex: "By this thinking, I could say digital is just as good, if not better than vinyl and tape, depending of the equipment setup."
3. It is only his opinion.
4. Others can question the value of the conclusion based on comparing two formats in different rooms.
5. It is Rex's system.
6. He is happy.
7. It is all good.

I actually think Rex's post about the colorations of vinyl are consistent with his opinions of vinyl versus digital and support his earlier conclusions and my subsequent post. I read a clear preference for one over the other, and as I said, that is fine. His opinion, his system, his preference, his enjoyment. It is all good.

Rex: "What was also good were some digital rips from vinyl people have sent me in the past. They play very well. But I'm pretty sure I hear the vinyl playback equipment in the chain. A subtle shaping of the sound. A slight coloration. Not bad in any way. Just some color. It makes me wonder how much color one vinyl system to another has compared to digital."
 
He has superior knowledge and experience,
Some guy fiddles around with a few pickup cartridges and becomes a deity in some folks eyes … Hardly a surgeon or orthodontist or master watchmaker , an oncology nurse or even a skilled automotive mechanic is he ? Could he even re-build a pick up cartridge or replace a stylus ? No … In reality he is merely another used hifi dealer isn’t he ?
 
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Al, what is false about my statement here:?

We can not really get into the reasons. Rex simply prefers his digital in one room to his vinyl in another room, and from that he makes a general conclusion about vinyl versus digital. It is only his opinion. Others can question the value of the conclusion based on comparing two formats in different rooms I suppose, but it's Rex's system and he is happy, so all is good.

1. Rex does prefer his digital in one room to his vinyl in another room.
2. He does make a general conclusion about vinyl versus digital. Rex: "By this thinking, I could say digital is just as good, if not better than vinyl and tape, depending of the equipment setup."
3. It is only his opinion.
4. Others can question the value of the conclusion based on comparing two formats in different rooms.
5. It is Rex's system.
6. He is happy.
7. It is all good.

I actually think Rex's post about the colorations of vinyl are consistent with his opinions of vinyl versus digital and support his earlier conclusions and my subsequent post. I read a clear preference for one over the other, and as I said, that is fine. His opinion, his system, his preference, his enjoyment. It is all good.

Rex: "What was also good were some digital rips from vinyl people have sent me in the past. They play very well. But I'm pretty sure I hear the vinyl playback equipment in the chain. A subtle shaping of the sound. A slight coloration. Not bad in any way. Just some color. It makes me wonder how much color one vinyl system to another has compared to digital."

As to point 2, Peter, you are only quoting some of the relevant bit. In his post he also says (emphasis added):
"That can be interpreted as digital is better than vinyl and tape, depending on the setup. One could argue I have to re-install the vinyl and tape to compare. They should have improved also. Maybe true."

Also, the part that you quote says "depending on the equipment set-up". This emphatically does not sound like, what you claim, is a "general conclusion about vinyl versus digital".

Also, as I pointed out in my post, a follow-up post of Kingrex states:
"Yes, If I set up my vinyl, it would probably supersede my digital on some source material. Not all. But the point is the room is having a profound impact. More so than I thought."

So again he does not make a blanket statement in favor of either medium.

***

As I suggested, please consider the actual arguments made more carefully.

Yet you are not the only one who could improve on this front.

(Sometimes I myself am even guilty of misreading or misinterpreting, but I do my best not to, and in general I do think I am more careful than some others are.)
 
As to point 2, Peter, you are only quoting some of the relevant bit. In his post he also says (emphasis added):
"That can be interpreted as digital is better than vinyl and tape, depending on the setup. One could argue I have to re-install the vinyl and tape to compare. They should have improved also. Maybe true."

Also, the part that you quote says "depending on the equipment set-up". This emphatically does not sound like, what you claim, is a "general conclusion about vinyl versus digital".

Also, as I pointed out in my post, a follow-up post of Kingrex states:
"Yes, If I set up my vinyl, it would probably supersede my digital on some source material. Not all. But the point is the room is having a profound impact. More so than I thought."

So again he does not make a blanket statement in favor of either medium.

***

As I suggested, please consider the actual arguments made more carefully.

Yet you are not the only one who could improve on this front.

(Sometimes I myself am even guilty of misreading or misinterpreting, but I do my best not to, and in general I do think I am more careful than some others are.)

As I said, it’s Rex’s opinion. There’s no point in arguing about it. He seems to be enjoying his new system and that’s great.
 
As I said, it’s Rex’s opinion. There’s no point in arguing about it.

There's no point arguing about Rex's opinion, that's true, but there was a point arguing about what is actually Rex's opinion. Misrepresentation is not a good thing.
 
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There's no point arguing about Rex's opinion, that's true, but there was a point arguing about what is actually Rex's opinion. Misrepresentation is not a good thing.

I would prefer Rex to clarify his opinion than to argue endlessly with you. Arguing with a neighbor about November would be more fun.
 
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I love it when someone makes manufacturers uncomfortable and maybe up their game. Personally i have never encountered a cartridge that could not be adjusted into excellent performance through traditional means, primarily my eyes and ears. :)
I once had Chris Feickert over at my place when they had the first commercial version of Adjust +. They measured my setup, which I did entirely myself just with a protractor, and declared that there was nothing to adjust…even VTA and Azimuth were spot on. Now I find my vision isn’t as good, so I have more difficulty getting it right…something like Adjust + would now be quite helpful.
 
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Hello Milan!

How do you know J.R. is over-emphasizing this?

From my personal experiences in this hobby, and from the reports of other audiophiles,
Will be interesting to know the other audiophiles, systems they have, and records they play. I know MF is one. Kingrex another.
 
This post did not start with either/or mentality. I have and will always enjoy both formats for different reasons than are personal (i.e. SQ, convenience, music format collection, etc). Rather I wanted to basically understand the delta improvement in SQ from moving up the digital ladder when it is already so close to my vinyl.
I did the reverse, I wanted to know if vinyl playback could be good enough to make me invest in a better turntable/tonearm/cartridge. I had stopped listening to vinyl since my Playback Designs MPT8/MPD8 was so good. So I went to the Audio Salon TechDAS event figuring that would be as good as vinyl could get. The TechDAS CEO and top techs were there and played selected tracks from carefully chosen and meticulously cleaned records on a TechDAS AF0 with their top tonearm and cartridge, all expertly set up. I figure it must have been about a $600K rig. The sound was indeed outstanding. I listened to the same tracks (16/44.1) on the MPT8/MPD8 when I got home, my conclusion was there was no reason for me to chase vinyl, that even the cost-no-object vinyl rig, expertly set up, would make me play vinyl over my digital system.
 
I did the reverse, I wanted to know if vinyl playback could be good enough to make me invest in a better turntable/tonearm/cartridge. I had stopped listening to vinyl since my Playback Designs MPT8/MPD8 was so good. So I went to the Audio Salon TechDAS event figuring that would be as good as vinyl could get. The TechDAS CEO and top techs were there and played selected tracks from carefully chosen and meticulously cleaned records on a TechDAS AF0 with their top tonearm and cartridge, all expertly set up. I figure it must have been about a $600K rig. The sound was indeed outstanding. I listened to the same tracks (16/44.1) on the MPT8/MPD8 when I got home, my conclusion was there was no reason for me to chase vinyl, that even the cost-no-object vinyl rig, expertly set up, would make me play vinyl over my digital system.
Appreciate your honest report.
 
I did the reverse, I wanted to know if vinyl playback could be good enough to make me invest in a better turntable/tonearm/cartridge. I had stopped listening to vinyl since my Playback Designs MPT8/MPD8 was so good. So I went to the Audio Salon TechDAS event figuring that would be as good as vinyl could get. The TechDAS CEO and top techs were there and played selected tracks from carefully chosen and meticulously cleaned records on a TechDAS AF0 with their top tonearm and cartridge, all expertly set up. I figure it must have been about a $600K rig. The sound was indeed outstanding. I listened to the same tracks (16/44.1) on the MPT8/MPD8 when I got home, my conclusion was there was no reason for me to chase vinyl, that even the cost-no-object vinyl rig, expertly set up, would make me play vinyl over my digital system.

The rig doesn’t make the difference. Only to an initial extent, or a bad one will stand out
 
The rig doesn’t make the difference. Only to an initial extent, or a bad one will stand out

Interesting comment. I learned a lot from living with turntables and directly comparing them over long periods in my system. I found that the rig does make a difference. Perhaps you mean more generally in the good vinyl versus good digital debate. There, perhaps other factors like recording quality and listener sensibilities matter more, kind of a macro versus micro issue.
 
Interesting comment. I learned a lot from living with turntables and directly comparing them over long periods in my system. I found that the rig does make a difference. Perhaps you mean more generally in the good vinyl versus good digital debate. There, perhaps other factors like recording quality and listener sensibilities matter more, kind of a macro versus micro issue.
I am sure your one TT sounded better than the other when compared next to each other, like Rex's digital might sometime compared to his vinyl. In the bigger picture, a Garrard with a SPU might in some systems sound better than your AS 2000 with a more expensive cart, that would depend on the record and the system. You can hear any TT of your choice sound good or not so good quite easily, even if the cart is spot on.
 
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I am sure your one TT sounded better than the other when compared next to each other, like Rex's digital might sometime compared to his vinyl. In the bigger picture, a Garrard with a SPU might in some systems sound better than your AS 2000 with a more expensive cart, that would depend on the record and the system. You can hear any TT of your choice sound good or not so good quite easily, even if the cart is spot on.

So I misunderstood you. Could you please clarify this comment below? What difference do you mean?

The rig doesn’t make the difference. Only to an initial extent, or a bad one will stand out
 
So I misunderstood you. Could you please clarify this comment below? What difference do you mean?

If you have a bad component it will stand out, so if you compare something to it you will prefer the latter. But with decent tables, after getting to a certain level, as I have said before the arm and cart make the bigger difference, but the whole rig can be made to sound bad or much less impactful with a poor signal path and bad to average records.
 
Interesting comment. I learned a lot from living with turntables and directly comparing them over long periods in my system. I found that the rig does make a difference. Perhaps you mean more generally in the good vinyl versus good digital debate. There, perhaps other factors like recording quality and listener sensibilities matter more, kind of a macro versus micro issue.
cleaning and listening to 70+ new to me (old-random other than alphabetized) pressings in my system these last 10 days or so, all classical and early 70's or earlier, some pressings just reach a higher level beyond. but not all. it's like an out of body excursion of immersion. the gear and system are up to to it for each one, but it's the performance/recording/media that transports us higher.......probably not that much uber-gear related. and also my digital is the best ever (for me) too and i'm fully connecting and it's wonderful, but on these particular pressings it's game over....see ya later.

and mostly these are not the heavy hitter spendy one's, you can't exactly predict it. but when you hear it you can't un hear it. you do need to be in a mind space open to the musical genre.
 
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cleaning and listening to 70+ new to me (old-random other than alphabetized) pressings in my system these last 10 days or so, all classical and early 70's or earlier, some pressings just reach a higher level beyond. but not all. it's like an out of body excursion of immersion. the gear and system are up to to it for each one, but it's the performance/recording/media that transports us higher.......probably not that much uber-gear related. and also my digital is the best ever (for me) too and i'm fully connecting and it's wonderful, but on these particular pressings it's game over....see ya later.

and mostly these are not the heavy hitter spendy one's, you can't exactly predict it. but when you hear it you can't un hear it. you do need to be in a mind space open to the musical genre.

I have such recordings also. Yes, recordings do matter. It is a wonderful discovery and a lot of fun when coming across them.
 
I do have my tape running. I have one master tape of an album I love, and a digital file of the same album I made from a CD I copied with DB Poweramp. The tape is clearly better. But, that does not dismiss that any of the digital I have is playing way better in the new room than any source I had in the old room. The current setup, in this room has digital superior to the analog and tape in my old room.

I don't think its an opinion in a vinyl/digital debate to say any source you focus on can be the most premium playback media in your system. The argument that you focused on vinyl and surpassed your digital is only a result in your room from your effort. It has nothing to do with other peoples results in their room with their efforts. I don't see one as better than the other. I see what you focus your efforts on and continue to tune will continue to improve. You might think you have a viny or tape that is better than digital, but someone could show up with a better digital with better source material and supersede your vinyl. Digital is amazingly musical, natural and real in my room. Far better than what I use to measure as Natural Sound and real in my old room. You may find your vinyl the best media in your system. That does not mean it could not be superseded by digital with appropriate effort and media.
 

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