Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[PeterA]

reading this post from J.R. about the consequences of changing VTA by raising/lowering the tone arm the mind boggles.

From this post I gather he prefers to set VTA at the headshell by measurement, not by listening. This post seems to support what I gather about his process.

 

[bonzo75]

i made no comment about any of those other things. you made a general comment, Peter got specific, you waved your hand and dismissed that too, now you go general again.....sure the cartridge was set up but everything else is wrong.

ok. you made your point.

yes I have mentioned many times recently that analog set up has to do with the signal path and the records. It is not just about tweaking the cartridge. I am sure that is spot on from JR. I clearly referred to analog, and not the cartridge set up

 

[bonzo75]

There is always Al !

And his buddy Wil who thinks he has to like Al's comments because both are digital.

 

[Lagonda]

reading this post from J.R. about the consequences of changing VTA by raising/lowering the tone arm the mind boggles.

And a little overemphasizing the amount of cartridges with bad zenith errors don't hurt sales of his services, tools and scopes.

 

[PeterA]

i made no comment about any of those other things. you made a general comment, Peter got specific, you waved your hand and dismissed that too, now you go general again.....sure the cartridge was set up but everything else is wrong.

ok. you made your point.

We can not really get into the reasons. Rex simply prefers his digital in one room to his vinyl in another room, and from that he makes a general conclusion about vinyl versus digital. It is only his opinion. Others can question the value of the conclusion based on comparing two formats in different rooms I suppose, but it's Rex's system and he is happy, so all is good.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

From this post I gather he prefers to set VTA at the headshell by measurement, not by listening. This post seems to support what I gather about his process.

i'm not here to defend J.R. i know you have your deck of cards. and it works for you.

i've been mostly a 'by-ear' set up person forever; protractor + azimuth grid + VTA mostly by ear. i'm going to dip my toe into a more rigorous approach and see where it gets me.

 

[PeterA]

And his buddy Wil who thinks he has to like Al's comments because both are digital.

I like some of your comments even though we do not both have systems.

 

[PeterA]

i'm not here to defend J.R. i know you have your deck of cards. and it works for you.

i've been mostly a 'by-ear' set up person forever; protractor + azimuth grid + VTA mostly by ear. i'm going to dip my toe into a more rigorous approach and see where it gets me.

Mike, I think we were simply discussing his process.

So you understand: the deck of cards is simply a very clever tool so that one can make very small, very precise, and perhaps most importantly repeatable, adjustments while listening to decide what setting sounds most natural during the set up process. Other arms have other methods for making and setting positions.

 

[bonzo75]

I like some of your comments even though we do not both have systems.

There is a difference between liking people's comments, and liking them tribally. Even I like Al's comments sometimes. For example, Brad and I are far from best friends despite we both like SETs horns, but Wil and Al back each other on random digital comments.

 

[PeterA]

There is a difference between liking people's comments, and liking them tribally. Even I like Al's comments sometimes. For example, Brad and I are far from best friends despite we both like SETs horns, but Wil and Al back each other on random digital comments.

The "like" button is controversial but has become an essential device to support activity on social media platforms, and there are consequences.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, so you understand, the deck of cards is simply a very clever tool so that one can make very small, very precise, and perhaps most importantly repeatable, adjustments while listening to decide what setting sounds most natural during the set up process. Other arms have other methods for making and setting positions.

i respect your process, it's probably better than what i do. it works for you. sorry if it came off in any other way.

 

[Ron Resnick]

And a little overemphasizing the amount of cartridges with bad zenith errors don't hurt sales of his services, tools and scopes.

Hello Milan!

How do you know J.R. is over-emphasizing this?

From my personal experiences in this hobby, and from the reports of other audiophiles, I have come to the conclusion that sample-to-sample cartridge variation of the physical characteristics of the same model of cartridge is an unfortunate and inadequately recognized reality.

I'm not saying it's easy to work with tiny cartridge components and achieve consistent build quality and low sample-to-sample variation. I'm saying only that we should recognize the reality that no matter how expensive the cartridge is it is not easy to build these things in a physically consistent way.

I don't expect such a small, difficult-to-build component to be manufactured perfectly. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a US$15,000 cartridge is manufactured to within some range of industry or expert acknowledged acceptability.

Yes, J.R. is in business, and providing services. But he has also given us insight into the sample-to-sample variation of cartridges by a variety of manufacturers. This may make manufacturers uncomfortable, but it is material information for consumers.

Hopefully J.R.'s work will spur cartridge manufacturers to devise production techniques and quality control protocols to reduce sample-to-sample variation of the same model of cartridge.

 

[Lagonda]

Hello Milan!

How do you know J.R. is over-emphasizing this?

From my personal experiences in this hobby, and from the reports of other audiophiles, I have come to the conclusion that sample-to-sample cartridge variation of the physical characteristics of the same model of cartridge is an unfortunate and inadequately recognized reality.

I'm not saying it's easy to work with tiny cartridge components and achieve consistent build quality and low sample-to-sample variation. I'm saying only that we should recognize the reality that no matter how expensive the cartridge is it is not easy to build these things in a physically consistent way.

I don't expect such a small, difficult-to-build component to be manufactured perfectly. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a US$15,000 cartridge is manufactured to within some range of industry or expert acknowledged acceptability.

Yes, J.R. is in business, and providing services. But he has also given us insight into the sample-to-sample variation of cartridges by a variety of manufacturers. This may make manufacturers uncomfortable, but it is material information for consumers.

Hopefully J.R.'s work will spur cartridge manufacturers to devise production techniques and quality control protocols to reduce sample-to-sample variation of the same model of cartridge.

I love it when someone makes manufacturers uncomfortable and maybe up their game. Personally i have never encountered a cartridge that could not be adjusted into excellent performance through traditional means, primarily my eyes and ears.

 

[wil]

And his buddy Wil who thinks he has to like Al's comments because both are digital.

Your comments just keep getting more bizarre.

 

[Al M.]

There is a difference between liking people's comments, and liking them tribally. Even I like Al's comments sometimes. For example, Brad and I are far from best friends despite we both like SETs horns, but Wil and Al back each other on random digital comments.

I don't "like" a good number of Wil's posts because of tribalism, but because I find them well reasoned. But hey, some people like you can't see the difference -- because of a tribalistic attitude (oh, the irony).

That tribalistic attitude also causes you to be willfully blind to the fact that I also like vinyl, as I have unequivocally stated many times. Over the years, I even have consistently defended vinyl against unreasonable, dogmatic digiphiles. I continue to do so as needed.

But hey, pro-digital = anti-vinyl in tribal speak.

 

[PeterA]

i respect your process, it's probably better than what i do. it works for you. sorry if it came off in any other way.

I have no idea about your process Mike. I would encourage all vinyl guys to learn how to properly set up their own arms and cartridges. It is educational, it improves listening skills, and it is cheaper and often more convenient than having to rely on others. And sometimes, results can be superior. It can be very satisfying to know you did it, same with other aspects of system set up.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I love it when someone makes manufacturers uncomfortable and maybe up their game. Personally i have never encountered a cartridge that could not be adjusted into excellent performance through traditional means, primarily my eyes and ears.

a relevant read. not agreeing or disagreeing with you. i don't have enough personal experience to say, only owned about 3 dozen high end cartridges. a small sample size. and not investigated them technically. other than observed that every one of my 10 vdH cartridges (all the same general model) were absolutely different alignment wise. for all i know they are had perfect stylus alignments. just not the rest.

agree that so far not had a cartridge i could not get to sound 'pretty darn good', one way or another.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/databased-results-of-cartridge-assembly-accuracy.36469/#post-904668

 

[Al M.]

We can not really get into the reasons. Rex simply prefers his digital in one room to his vinyl in another room, and from that he makes a general conclusion about vinyl versus digital. It is only his opinion. Others can question the value of the conclusion based on comparing two formats in different rooms I suppose, but it's Rex's system and he is happy, so all is good.

(Emphasis added.)

This is clearly an incorrect statement, Peter. You need to consider the actual arguments made more carefully.

Here is Kingrex' original post:

I'm really pretty impressed with how my stereo sounds. Especially using digital. I am sitting quite near field. But darn. The detail and reaism is off the charts compared to my last room. Its the best my stereo Has been. At least for clarity, balance of tone, frequency extension, bass and impact. The soundstage is wide and well placed. Yet it has little depth. I probably have to move back for that.

Anyhow. This feels like one of those leapfrog moments I have talked of in the past. For the most part, the ststem sounds better than it ever has in the past. That means playing digital on the same equipment in a different room is of higher quality than my vinyl or tape has ever been. That can be interpreted as digital is better than vinyl and tape, depending on the setup. One could argue I have to re-install the vinyl and tape to compare. They should have improved also. Maybe true. But, by resetting the same equipment in a different location has elevated the digital source beyond the capabilitues of the vinyl and tape in a different room.

By this thinking, I could say digital is just as good, if not better than vinyl and tape, depending of the equipment setup.

Here is my interpretation following Rexp's post:

Until you set up an analog source, then you may have another epiphany....

Even if that were the case (and that judgement will vary by observer), the point here obviously is that there is no inherent secret magic to analog and no inherent detrimental flaw to digital that would always elevate analog over digital, no matter what.

Room and room acoustics, system setup in the room, system quality and synergy are much more important to great sound than any differences between analog and digital.

Of course, the true believers will deny all that. Let them.

***

Sure, the best comparison is analog vs digital in the same system and room, side by side. I have my thoughts on that, having heard several such comparisons. However, that is beside the point made above.

Kingrex agreed, and again makes a statement that proves yours false:

Very good way to put it Al.

Yes, If I set up my vinyl, it would probably supersede my digital on some source material. Not all. But the point is the room is having a profound impact. More so than I thought. And the equipment I have plays a lot better than I thought it could. I'm pretty shocked. The only issue I really hear is the less than optimum depth of soundstage. Outside that, the system and digital i particular is really really good as is. And I bet it might be a little better if I introduced a clock and AES into my DAC. Or a good transport.

What was also good were some digital rips from vinyl people have sent me in the past. They play very well. But I'm pretty sure I hear the vinyl playback equipment in the chain. A subtle shaping of the sound. A slight coloration. Not bad in any way. Just some color. It makes me wonder how much color one vinyl system to another has compared to digital.

 

[Argonaut]

I have no idea about your process Mike. I would encourage all vinyl guys to learn how to properly set up their own arms and cartridges. It is educational, it improves listening skills, and it is cheaper and often more convenient than having to rely on others. And sometimes, results can be superior. It can be very satisfying to know you did it, same with other aspects of system set up.

And yet you have been pushing the mythical skills of your turntable dealer as having setup your vinyl system ever since the vintage Japanese deck that he originally sold you …

“ It can be very satisfying to know you did it “

Perhaps I am missing something.

Curious!

 

[Lagonda]

a relevant read. not agreeing or disagreeing with you. i don't have enough personal experience to say, only owned a 2-3 dozen high end cartridges. a small sample size. and not investigated them technically. other than observed that every one of my 10 vdH cartridges (all the same general model) were absolutely different alignment wise. for all i know they are had perfect stylus alignments. just not the rest.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/databased-results-of-cartridge-assembly-accuracy.36469/#post-904668

I am not saying all cartridges are easy to adjust or even compatible with any given arm. Van Den Hul are hard to get right, they sound best right on the cusp of distortion/sibilance and a lot of arms can't go low enough in anti skating to get it right. And maybe sample variations have increased with the masters age. I would maybe have the cartridge checked by Wally Services if i could not get it right myself.