2-Channel Subwoofer Integration

[DasguteOhr]

A well-positioned subwoofer significantly improves the foundation and spatial reproduction of the music. Sometimes it helps to raise the subwoofer 40-60cm from the floor in order to achieve more even room stimulation. Peaks and valleys in the frequency response are smoothed.

 

[schlager]

Floyd Tool, Tod Welti, Earl Geddes among others have talked about the benefits of using multiple subwoofers for years and many are using this principle with great succes and if one looks at it from a scientific / acoustic point of view, it makes perfect sense. If you add the program Multi-Sub Optimizer Software into the mix

https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mso/html/index.html

and implement it properly, you have a very powerful tool, that will give you a very consistive seat-to-seat bas response. It will also integrate the subs with the main speaker for a seamless transition. Further more the program, through eq, delay and gain will improve the spatial distribution of acoustic pressure and particle velocity in the bass.
You feed the program with the appropriate measurements (see instructions) and the program will then calculate the settings for each sub (and mains optionally).
I was stunned at how accurate the program predicted my bass response at 5 seating locations, after I verified it with REW. And the bass it self, is just spectacular. No bloating or ringing, just tight natural even bass. There is a small learning curve, but once you get the hang of it, it is actually fun to use, because you can watch your future in room bass response change for the better, while the program crush the numbers.

No more guessing and using countless hours of trail and error, of dialing in the bass response and still only achieve sub-optimal results. Do the ground work of measuring each sub in different seatings and then let the program do the rest. You can even export the final sub settings as biquads to the DSP, so it can't be more easy than that. Enjoy!

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[sbnx]

Yes. MSO works quite well. What it predicts is very close to what will be measured once you input the recommended DSP filters. If you are new to measuring then there is a good bit of learning curve -- learning to setup and use REW, learning how to use MSO and also learning how to make the inputs to the DSP. MSO is also "picky". By this I mean you have to follow EXACTLY the right process. Any deviation will result in far from optimum results.

 

[Phillyb]

I have used subs, both RCA input and then to compare running out of my amp like my main speakers, but subs had their own built-in amps. I easily heard the improvement when running directly from my amp, REL also suggests that way. Now with a Speaker that can produce the best bottom end I've heard from stand-alone speakers, I no longer need to use a sub and in fact, they now take away from the reproduction of my system. Those speakers are open-baffle Spatial Audio Sapphire 3's. In-room I am hitting 28Hz or so, but so clean and fast with texture and detail. The speakers sound purer without them, with my other speakers like my Quads, they made a positive impact, now they make their impact where they should be in the HT system, where they make movie watching enjoyable. The learning point from this was some speakers don't need subs and in fact, you may hurt the sound depending on the speakers and the quality of bottom-end they can put out. In audio, there are no absolutes.

 

[schlager]

Agreed, a bit of a learning curve if you start from scratch. But if you can handle a mic + REW (or another audio software) you are almost half way there When I see what people has invested in their systems, both financially and time wise, I really believe learning MSO is a very small investment in time (it is freeware program) and the end result will lift any system by magnitude of order. Floyd Toole stated that the bass stands for 30 % of what people consider good sound and we are only talking of the first 100-200 hz.

Lets say you have main speakers going down to 40 hz. Then 1 sub, placed in a corner, going down to say 20 hz would, in most normal settings be sufficient, for getting a nice flat bass response. You can of course make a bass tilt, to serve your preferences. Adding more distributed subs will improve seat to seat variation and make each sub work less hard, thus lowering distortion and greatly improving total max output, as MSO will make the subs work together more smoothly. You don't even have to use similar subs, as MSO will take any frequency/phase issues into account.

If one implement science and psychoacoustics into their audio system, it will start to sound like art

 

[Ron Resnick]

Simply connecting a sub to existing mains speaker (or amp) terminals is the WORST POSSIBLE WAY to do this. EVERYTHING scientific and acoustic about this method is wrong, from the additive delay issues to the back EMF of the mains affecting the LF signal.

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A lot of absolutes here.

So John Hunter is wrong? Kevin Malmgren is wrong?

 

[PerfectCircles]

I've blended quite a few sub in my time, but I was having difficulty blending the SVS with the full-horn Klipsch La Scala's.

I used REW and that helped, but what was surprisingly good was employing the Anti-Mode 8033S-II on the sub.

REALLY surprised at the improvement that gave. It's cheap and a must-have in my opinion after experiencing it.

 

[Chops]

A lot of absolutes here.

So John Hunter is wrong? Kevin Malmgren is wrong?

I totally disagree with that "absolute" as well.

When I first starting running subwoofers in my systems well over 25 years ago, I used to connect them via RCA cables. No matter what I did, I was never really satisfied with the results. I could never get them to integrate properly.

It wasn't until about 12 or 13 years ago when I started connecting my subs via their high-level inputs straight out of my main amplifier. Connecting the subwoofers this way, I have always achieved much better to near perfect integration with the main speakers, the subwoofers pretty much seeming nonexistent in the system, only that you hear and feel the effects of the subs when called upon.

The other key feature of this type of setup is the fact that you allow your main loudspeakers to remain playing fullrange, letting them do what they were designed to do, especially with large Magnepans. Except for when running small stand mount monitors did I ever run into limited dynamics and the need of keeping the volume a bit lower to keep the monitors out of danger. Other than that, getting them to integrate with the subwoofers was always best with the subs connected to the main amp.

One other added benefit I have noticed with all of my subwoofers that I have connected straight to the main amp is that the subs themselves simply sound better. Tighter, more detailed, a bit more extended, and since they take on the sound of the amp feeding them and the mains, it helps that much more with seamlessly integrating them to the mains.

Having witnessed the differences of running subwoofers in my systems over the years via low-level inputs vs high-level inputs, you will never see me running RCA cables to my subwoofers again. The advantages are just too great sending the signal to them via their high-level inputs from the main amp.

This is precisely why I went with the SVS PB-1000 Pro subs instead of the 3000 or 4000 series that I was prepared to purchase. The 1000 series is the ONLY series SVS makes with high-level inputs.

Which reminds me, I still have my JL Audio e110 subs that I need to sell. Keep forgetting about them. (out of site, out of mind).

 

[PerfectCircles]

The other key feature of this type of setup is the fact that you allow your main loudspeakers to remain playing fullrange, letting them do what they were designed to do, especially with large Magnepans. Except for when running small stand mount monitors did I ever run into limited dynamics and the need of keeping the volume a bit lower to keep the monitors out of danger. Other than that, getting them to integrate with the subwoofers was always best with the subs connected to the main amp.

I'm not sure if maybe you missed typed or I misread but I have RCA's our of my Luxman running into my 8033 sub DSP then into the back of my SVS 3000.

The ability to tune the sub from the seated position post-sub DSP flattening via the SVS app allows me to get a seamless blend to my personal taste.

I use the x-over in the SVS and leave my main speakers running full range. I may have misread your post but it sounds like you are saying you can't use RCA and run your main speakers full range?

 

[Chops]

I'm not sure if maybe you missed typed or I misread but I have RCA's our of my Luxman running into my 8033 sub DSP then into the back of my SVS 3000.

The ability to tune the sub from the seated position post-sub DSP flattening via the SVS app allows me to get a seamless blend to my personal taste.

I use the x-over in the SVS and leave my main speakers running full range. I may have misread your post but it sounds like you are saying you can't use RCA and run your main speakers full range?

I think you might have mistaken what I said.

What I mentioned was since I'm using my main amp to feed the signal to my subs, that means that the amp is still sending a fullrange signal to my loudspeakers as well, which is what I prefer. That's in reference to the fact that I prefer giving my subs a high-level input off of the main amp.

I have a dbx DriveRack Venu 360 that I could do the same thing you're doing with your 8033 DSP, and I have in previous setups. I could get really good integration with the mains either playing fullrange or high-passed, but there was always a discontinuity between the subs and mains.

That discontinuity being the fact that the mains were being fed from the preamp to the dbx to the amp and the subs were getting fed directly from the preamp and dbx. The missing link was the sound signature of the amp never getting to the subs which was causing that discontinuity between the subs and mains.

 

[PerfectCircles]

I think you might have mistaken what I said.

What I mentioned was since I'm using my main amp to feed the signal to my subs, that means that the amp is still sending a fullrange signal to my loudspeakers as well, which is what I prefer. That's in reference to the fact that I prefer giving my subs a high-level input off of the main amp.

I have a dbx DriveRack Venu 360 that I could do the same thing you're doing with your 8033 DSP, and I have in previous setups. I could get really good integration with the mains either playing fullrange or high-passed, but there was always a discontinuity between the subs and mains.

That discontinuity being the fact that the mains were being fed from the preamp to the dbx to the amp and the subs were getting fed directly from the preamp and dbx. The missing link was the sound signature of the amp never getting to the subs which was causing that discontinuity between the subs and mains.

Ahhh. OK. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Chops]

Ahhh. OK. Thanks for clarifying.

You're welcome, sir. No problem.

 

[andromedaaudio]

A ported speaker is ALWAYS nothing more than a cheap way to attempt to get free bass out of an enclosure and /or driver that's too small. It's a holdover from the 1930's when because of driver inefficiencies (especially when compared to today's units) you had to do everything possible to increase the useable output over the desired range of low frequencies.

Thats probably the biggest nonsense i ve ever read on WBF ( apart from the regular horn obsession)


These will blow your socks off

 

[Chops]

Thats probably the biggest nonsense i ve ever read on WBF ( apart from the regular horn obsession)


These will blow your socks off


View attachment 103412

Exactly! If properly executed, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a ported design.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Exactly! If properly executed, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a ported design.

I have listened to a lot of magicos and many other designs lately and i m more convinced then ever .
In the bass region i wouldn t change a thing , bass reflex designs if well executed deliver deep natural bass with enourmous impact .( if the housing is up to it )

 

[andromedaaudio]

The best sub woofer integration i have ever heard was at Ultimate audio in Lisbon ( BOULDER ROCKPORT LYRA WADAX).

The subs were from Perlisten , i m not sure whether they were ported or not ,(i d have to check their website)
I think they are a closed design

 

[Chops]

I have listened to a lot of magicos and many other designs lately and i m more convinced then ever .
In the bass region i wouldn t change a thing , bass reflex designs if well executed deliver deep natural bass with enourmous impact .( if the housing is up to it )

I couldn't agree more.

I'm currently listening to Röyksopp Profound Mistories...

Loads of deep, articulate bass on this album. "The Morning Sun" track just started and there's some really low, hard hitting bass, and it scared the stink out of me just now!

Point being, with today's technology in subwoofer driver design, plate amplifier capability, and overall tuning of the driver/enclosure, the quality of bass one can get out of ported designs equal or rival that of sealed designs.

 

[Chops]

The subs were from Perlisten , i m not sure whether they were ported or not

I'm pretty sure they're all sealed. Some are a single driver design, others are a push-pull design very reminiscent of the old M&K subs from back in the day, which they still make to this day.

 

[andromedaaudio]

For me the best bass comes from large drivers working in a large volume with a bass reflex port , which makes sure this space can breathe naturally iow prevents excessive (opposite direction )pressure behind the drivers

My bass LS units work in the same large space of around 135 liters .
Ever knocked on a small box as compared to a knock on a large box ?
Completely different sound , the large box sounds much deeper as compared to the small one .

Thats why im not a big fan of small bass drivers working in a small volume even if they have large excursion .
( apart from the fact small drivers have a higher Fs in general )

 

[LL21]

The best sub woofer integration i have ever heard was at Ultimate audio in Lisbon ( BOULDER ROCKPORT LYRA WADAX).

The subs were from Perlisten , i m not sure whether they were ported or not ,(i d have to check their website)
I think they are a closed design

Hi Andromeda,

Given your experiences in designing speakers and your experience with subs here...what do you make of the REL 6-pack design? in other words, do you believe that the 6-pack configuration itself adds more than just cone area due to the fact that the base set are typically rolled off at something like 40hz, then the middle pair at 50hz and then the topmost at something like 60hz...essentially they are all dialed in differently than you can with a simple pair of subs (even if those 2 subs move the same amount of air)?