A new relationship

[DaveyF]

Speaking of a new relationship, I have been looking to replace my beloved Benz Ruby 2 for several years now. This task has been extremely difficult, as I did not want to do a sideways move, and auditioning cartridges in my system was limited, at best. So, I have been on a long quest to try and hear as many cartridges as possible. Well luckily my quest has now come to an end. This week I got to listen to a new Lyra Kleos in my system, and that was all that was needed to pull the trigger. The Lyra sound, described by some as lean...is in my system anything but. Perhaps, it’s because of the amazing synergy this cartridge has with my WTA Black Arm...and it novel bearing and isolation, perhaps it’s because of my all tube system...and SF GH’s speakers, or perhaps its because many of the naysayers on this cartridge simply never heard what it can do. Here’s the thing of it, and the cartridge only has about six hours on it so far, therefore it’s still breaking in, compared to my Ruby 2, the Lyra is far more resolved at both ends of the frequency extremes, more precise in its imaging capabilities and about as dynamic as the Ruby, even though I fully expect it to easily best that once it is more broken in. Precise set up is very necessary with this cartridge, and I think any slight deviation in Azimuth or VTF or VTA is going to loose a little greatness, but once it’s dialed in....

Having listened to the VDH Colibri Koa Strad, the new Air Tight 7,Kiseki Purple Heart and several other cartridges at various price points in recent days and months, this Lyra is really in a very different league to the cartridges that I was able to audition, as I suspect are all of the Lyra’s.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Congratulations, Davey! I'm very happy for the you that you found a replacement for your Benz Ruby 2! I enjoyed a Benz Ruby 2 for about 16 years.

Of course the Lyra is more extended at both ends of the frequency spectrum than the Benz Ruby 2. But, except possibly with the Etna SL, I am baffled that you do not find the Lyra to be leaner-sounding than the Benz Ruby 2.

 

[DaveyF]

Thanks Ron, I'm pretty happy with this cartridge right now. We both agree that the Benz Ruby 2 is exceptional ( I enjoyed it for twenty years!), and for its time it was probably unbeatable. But i think you answered the question about the Kleos vs the Ruby 2...the Kleos is far more extended at both ends of the frequency spectrum, and as such I think the amount of information that is revealed ( particularly in the bass) makes it a real eye opener to listen to. My dealer was certain that if one heard any of the Lyra's as sounding lean, it wasn't the fault of the cartridge, instead the fault of the rest of the gear not being revealing enough and/or an incompatibility with the table/arm to do these cartridges justice. I was a little skeptical of this at first, that is until i placed the Kleos into my system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am totally delighted that you’re happy, and that the Lyra works great in your system!

I’m just pressing us to stay intellectually honest: the dealer’s view (certainty? that dealer should step down from his throne) that if a Lyra sounds lean it is the fault of the system is inconsistent with the consensus view that, while the Lyra has many great attributes, it is on the lean-sounding side.

 

[DaveyF]

Ron, I think a lot of us fall into this trap...believing everything that we read on the various forums and from other people's opinions. I too was concerned that the cartridge would be lean...as this is the reputation that it seems to have on the web. ( Along with another dealer stating to me the same thing). However, I have come to the conclusion that one of the biggest problems in this hobby, is that we discount various types of gear and asign expectations of its performance abilities based on reputation and forum chatter. This is the reason that I wanted to hear as many cartridges in my own system as possible, and to not just go on reputation. Achieving this is incredibly difficult ( for obvious reasons) with the various cartridge models.
So, while I was skeptical, like you are, I didn't want to come to a conclusion until i had heard it for myself. ( which is really the best way to conclude about anything in our hobby, IMO).
One of my good a'phile friends had told me that unlike digital, wherein no one can easily misrepresent the ability of the DAC or server etc, due to the ease of demoing these pieces on a A/B basis, cartridges are an entirely different matter. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of mis-information assigned to this type of gear...and a lot of it is innuendo and conjecture ( as was proven to me by the demurring dealers admission that he really hadn't heard the Lyra in question under the best of circumstances and the set up was done by a less than highly experienced tech...plus, he didn't happen to rep this line!! ).
When you state that the Lyra is on the lean side, what is that really based on...personal experience in your own system and room...or in a system at a dealers who may or may not know how to set it up ( and there is no doubt in my mind that an expert set up is required to get the best of this advanced design), or having heard it at some show? Or internet chatter...or something else. BUT, i personally feel ( at this point) that unless you hear the Lyras in your own system and in your own room...then all else is conjecture.IMHO. OTOH, if you still have your belief that these cartridges are lean after hearing it in your own system and room, then that is certainly a valid opinion.

 

[Ron Resnick]

My opinion about the Lyras being lean, except for the Etna SL, is based on at least a dozen times I have heard the Lyra Atlas myself including at least half a dozen times in friends’ systems. This includes direct comparisons between the Lyra Atlas and other cartridges.

In my experience most people, including me, hear the Lyra Atlas as being on the lean side. Full stop.

You don’t have to justify your decision by trying to prove that people who disagree with you are incorrect.

 

[DaveyF]

Ron, I'm not trying to be argumentative or to justify anything. However, IMO, IF you haven't heard a specific piece of gear in your own system, coming to a conclusion about its strengths and weaknesses in somebody else's system vs. your own system, is nothing more than an assumption on your behalf, which is exactly why I wanted to be able to demo any cartridge under consideration in my own system. That, plus I don't think we should lump all of the models from the same manufacturer into one generalized basket. I strongly suspect that if you heard my Lyra in my system you wouldn't conclude that it was lean in any way. Whether that has to do with the rest of my system or something else, i have no way of knowing. Dismissing the dealers comments the way you did, does however seem to me to be a little derisive.

 

[Al M.]

Ron, I'm not trying to be argumentative or to justify anything. However, IMO, IF you haven't heard a specific piece of gear in your own system, coming to a conclusion about its strengths and weaknesses in somebody else's system vs. your own system, is nothing more than an assumption on your behalf, which is exactly why I wanted to be able to demo any cartridge under consideration in my own system. That, plus I don't think we should lump all of the models from the same manufacturer into one generalized basket. I strongly suspect that if you heard my Lyra in my system you wouldn't conclude that it was lean in any way. Whether that has to do with the rest of my system or something else, i have no way of knowing. Dismissing the dealers comments the way you did, does however seem to me to be a little derisive.

I have no reason to doubt your assertions about the Lyra in your system. In my experience too tonal balances are system dependent.

Congratulations on your upgrade!

 

[DaveyF]

I have no reason to doubt your assertions about the Lyra in your system. In my experience too tonal balances are system dependent.

Congratulations on your upgrade!

Thank you, Al.

Upon further reflection on Ron's point, it is fairly well known that these cartridge have a reputation for being on the lean side of the reproduction. The Benz cartridges have the opposite reputation...they are apparently too warm. Interestingly, in my system, I was never under the impression that the Benz was too warm, and now the Lyra...too lean. While i have heard a Lyra Etna and an Atlas sounding a lot more 'neutral' than a VDH, when I heard them together ( but not in my system), I wouldn't say that 'lean' is necessarily the correct term.
In my way of thinking ( and Ron may not agree with this, or may have a different interpretation..which is all good), lean implies a lack of energy in the midrange and lower midrange...resulting in a less than 'live' sounding reproduction ( To my ears as a musician, live music has a lot of warmth and precision in these particular areas). So, what could be causing this issue of excessive warmth or leanness with these respective cartridges?

The Benz's utilize a wooden body, the Lyra's a metal body....perhaps that is the difference. If we believe that the body material has a major impact on the sound ( and I'm not 100% sure I do), then this could account for some of the differences. Without doubt, vibration of any kind is going to impart a certain sound to the cartridge ( after all that's one of the main jobs of a cartridge, to pick up and amplify vibration)---and metal vibrates in a totally different manner to wood, or plastic ( as the older Skala model was made from). Many times these cartridges are mounted on a tonearm that has a bearing that can impact the total SQ. I suspect that the metal designed body and the wooden designed body ( and of course the stone body, or plastic body etc) all have their own 'signature' sound. Maybe because of this reason---the sound is modified by the bearing design of the tonearm?
Therefore, when one listens to a metal bodied model, or a wooden bodied model, you are actually listening to the body of the cartridge and the design of the tonearm ( in particular the bearing) as a whole. Many times the 'compliance' of the tonearm is not working with the cartridge ( the Lyra's are very low in overall mass, benefitting from a lower weight arm tonearm), and/or the bearing is interfering with the SQ....as it was when I owned a tonearm that had obvious bearing chatter! The arm that I have mounted the Lyra Kleos on has a 'liquid' bearing ( The Well Tempered 'Black' arm). This bearing also adds something else to the picture...a factor of dampening! This is what I believe may be accounting for the lack of leanness in this cartridge. I wonder how many times the Lyra cartridges with the metal bodies are mounted on a tonearm that has no dampening??? Same for the wooden bodied cartridges?
Thoughts?

 

[Al M.]

Therefore, when one listens to a metal bodied model, or a wooden bodied model, you are actually listening to the body of the cartridge and the design of the tonearm ( in particular the bearing) as a whole.

I think this cannot be overemphasized.