A small upgrade in speakers... The CLXArt a true masterpiece!
- Thread starter Big Dog RJ
- Start date
Yes, correct.
ML stats only take less than 2 seconds to fully charge. 3 secs and all is good to go! So there's no requirement in 1/2 an hour or hours of charge up, that old tech is long gone in ML's latest X-Stat panels. These are made and built on very high standards, able to withstand high tolerances of over voltage and other types of abuse audiophiles and enthusiasts tend to do, especially during house parties, the stats go bust and eventually they blame it on the speakers.
I know this one chap, few years ago went on vacation leaving his daughter home. She organised a rave party, blew both the Quads, burnt out all 6 panels on each speaker. That's a total of 12 panels! The chap returned to find the disaster. Later learned that some DJ friends of the daughters had used a Musical Fidelity power amp rated at 1000w pumping into the Quads till the wee hours into the morning... 1000w non-stop! Well obviously you're asking for trouble.
As with Quads and other stats, once powered up and switched on, they remain on all the time. There's no standby circuit or sleep mode of any sort, the panels take about 15-20 mins to fully charge and hold steady after that. However, there are issues of dust collecting on the panels, smoke deposits and other floating particles in the air which are bad for charged stats. Hence, this is why Quad and a few others have dust covers protecting the panels. Infact Quad uses 3 levels of cover. First there's the outer fabric, then the metal perforated grills, and then another layer of transparent film that allows sound to pass through. This last layer of protective film covers the final stat panel, and this is the main reason why Quads aren't as transparent as ML's.
With ML stats, there are absolutely no covers, no layers of protection whatsoever, such that they're so transparent you can see right through them!
The only level of protection as mentioned before, is the standby mode, where after a certain few minutes of zero signal, the stats automatically shut off. As soon as a signal is applied, the stats power up again within 2secs and this is done through its mains transformers, all top notch EI-core transformers.
Like I said, these are not toys, they are top of class designs and products that will outlast many so called highend contenders. That's why the cost adds up, you basically pay for what you're getting. So why compromise...
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Best, RJ
ML stats only take less than 2 seconds to fully charge. 3 secs and all is good to go! So there's no requirement in 1/2 an hour or hours of charge up, that old tech is long gone in ML's latest X-Stat panels. These are made and built on very high standards, able to withstand high tolerances of over voltage and other types of abuse audiophiles and enthusiasts tend to do, especially during house parties, the stats go bust and eventually they blame it on the speakers.
I know this one chap, few years ago went on vacation leaving his daughter home. She organised a rave party, blew both the Quads, burnt out all 6 panels on each speaker. That's a total of 12 panels! The chap returned to find the disaster. Later learned that some DJ friends of the daughters had used a Musical Fidelity power amp rated at 1000w pumping into the Quads till the wee hours into the morning... 1000w non-stop! Well obviously you're asking for trouble.
As with Quads and other stats, once powered up and switched on, they remain on all the time. There's no standby circuit or sleep mode of any sort, the panels take about 15-20 mins to fully charge and hold steady after that. However, there are issues of dust collecting on the panels, smoke deposits and other floating particles in the air which are bad for charged stats. Hence, this is why Quad and a few others have dust covers protecting the panels. Infact Quad uses 3 levels of cover. First there's the outer fabric, then the metal perforated grills, and then another layer of transparent film that allows sound to pass through. This last layer of protective film covers the final stat panel, and this is the main reason why Quads aren't as transparent as ML's.
With ML stats, there are absolutely no covers, no layers of protection whatsoever, such that they're so transparent you can see right through them!
The only level of protection as mentioned before, is the standby mode, where after a certain few minutes of zero signal, the stats automatically shut off. As soon as a signal is applied, the stats power up again within 2secs and this is done through its mains transformers, all top notch EI-core transformers.
Like I said, these are not toys, they are top of class designs and products that will outlast many so called highend contenders. That's why the cost adds up, you basically pay for what you're getting. So why compromise...
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Best, RJ
Returned the Dartzeel yesterday, it was definitely hard letting it go. For what it did on stats was simply extraordinary! The Momentums are also one of those specialised systems that deliver nothing but the best. However, that will have to wait another time, it's always a learning curve and awesome experience to appreciate what these new amplifiers are capable of from the legend himself, Dan D'Agostino. He's coming out with the Relentless preamp btw, so for those looking out for one, to match with either Momentums or the Relentless monoblocks would be SOTA at its highest level!
If Int'l travel is open, I'll probably get a chance to audition one in Feb, provided it's out by then.
I must say, the Dartzeel, Esoteric and CJ combination is one extraordinary performance on full range stats, outstanding presentation! I guess it's all about control, dynamic peaks, drive and stability on the panels, accuracy and low distortion. However, that's where I miss the tubes, that open midrange, soundstage depth and perfect sense of balance is my ultimate goal, so I might as well stick with the tube monoblocks. Whiles one is being attended to again, in the interim I'm enjoying CJ's mighty SS MF2550SE, it's no ordinary amplifier.
I've used this one many times before but on this occasion after all the adjustments and minor tweaks done, it's a while new stunning dimension. Wonderful!
Cheers to those who own Dartzeel, I clearly understand why you love those amplifiers. The Swiss perfection in performance at its best.
Best, and big woof'n, RJ
If Int'l travel is open, I'll probably get a chance to audition one in Feb, provided it's out by then.
I must say, the Dartzeel, Esoteric and CJ combination is one extraordinary performance on full range stats, outstanding presentation! I guess it's all about control, dynamic peaks, drive and stability on the panels, accuracy and low distortion. However, that's where I miss the tubes, that open midrange, soundstage depth and perfect sense of balance is my ultimate goal, so I might as well stick with the tube monoblocks. Whiles one is being attended to again, in the interim I'm enjoying CJ's mighty SS MF2550SE, it's no ordinary amplifier.
I've used this one many times before but on this occasion after all the adjustments and minor tweaks done, it's a while new stunning dimension. Wonderful!
Cheers to those who own Dartzeel, I clearly understand why you love those amplifiers. The Swiss perfection in performance at its best.
Best, and big woof'n, RJ
Howdy, RJ!
I am a bit confused. I thought you have been using tube amplifiers on your MLs?
Where are these solid-state amps coming from?
(I am curious because at audio shows and dealer demos I have heard various solid-state amplifiers driving various Martin-Logan speakers many times (including the Statement E2 once and the Neolith at least three times), and I have not once in my entire life liked the sound of a system which combined solid-state amps with ML speakers. Regardless of the particulars the combination just does not work for me.)
Big WOOF WOOF from Ventura County, California!
Ron, what tube amps have you heard driving Statement E2 ? I have tried VTL Wotans on my Statements and they sounded somewhat soft in the bass with a rolled of treble, compared to SS amplification. They do dip very low in impedance
The only setup i have heard about that did good with all tubes on Statement E2, was a setup where Gail Sanders used digital dsp and 3 maybe even 4 sets of Wotans at a show. He used solid state on his Statement E2 setup at home too.
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G'day Ron,
Great to hear from you. Trust all is well at your end of the woods... and those Pendragon's are playing some fine tunes!
Definitely agree on SS not being that great on stats but that again depends on which type of SS gear and how it's used in the primary role of amplification. I've found combinations from Pass Labs, CH Precision, Solution, Momentums, Relentless and more recently Dartzeel to be outstanding when partnered with all tube front ends. That hybrid combo sounds marvellous, drives the notorious impedence curve found on stats with ease, yet is equally outstanding on tubes, I guess it's a personal preference.
With SS, in my experience I've found that since they don't have output transformers, instead they drive the low impedence of speakers directly. This may or may not be a good feature depending on the power supplies and how reliable they are. All of those I just listed, I've had extensive experience with them and know for a fact they deliver what they're capable of 110%, no issues. However, at the same time there are many "high powered" amplifiers that simply run out of puff... mediocre power supplies and high watt ratings are rendered useless. It's all about the current capacity and SS devices have this high current required to control and grip difficult loads.
Having said that, now tube amplifier design has come a long way. I've found that especially now having top notch output transformers that provide the coupling interface between the tubes and speakers, allows the tubes to drive and control difficult loads along with the added high current provided by these top quality transformers. Tubes as you know possess low current but high voltage, so unless the output trannys are designed extremely well, it will be difficult for most tubes amplifiers to drive stats properly. Again power output means nothing much.
In all brands of tube amplifiers I've used, owned and tried in the past, some good, some not so good, others ok and one in particular that has always impressed, not flinched ever under difficult loads is CJ. They're output transformers and power supplies are outstanding!
My good mate who has the mighty ML Statements used to drive them with a full array of top line VTL/ Manley Labs amplifiers. Then he changed over to the Momentums and since lately the Relentless monoblocks which he still uses as the primary amplifiers. On the tube side of things, since lately he's using CJ's ART300's along with the Momentum preamp, and I must say this is one extraordinary combination! It's just an awe-inspiring experience, more so on the Statements as well as on the CLX's full range. This is one combination I would certainly like to have but finances don't permit atm. That's why I've been slowly upgrading and modifying my monoblocks to get to a certain point where they can deliver a slightly higher Class A bias, thus being able to fully grip the CLX's and drive those triple stators.
To answer your question where did all these SS amps come from... well no, I haven't changed from my CJ tube amplifiers, I never will. Since lately what happened was around Jan I sent the monoblocks for a final SE upgrade and in the meantime I got a chance to experience some great SS amps with the CLX's. Then just a week ago when the monoblocks returned, all was fine and wonderful until a hum started happening from the right channel, and in addition to that, an unusual loud static pop whenever a light switch was activated across the hall. This aggravated me big time, so once again called in the experts to source the problem. After a whole day of searching, and seeking out the issue it turned out to be the right channel monoblock. So that's now gone back for a check up...
The monoblock should arrive back by mid March, until then here's another mighty fine SS design by CJ that I'm really enjoying as I'm typing this reply...
Cheers Ron, a big woofty woof'n!
Oh! I forgot, enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
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Have you ever tried the CAT amps on the Martin logans ?
They have the biggest transformers i ve seen on tube gear , whether one likes them soundwise is another matter .
I m talking simply drivability here.
They have the biggest transformers i ve seen on tube gear , whether one likes them soundwise is another matter .
I m talking simply drivability here.
Ron, what tube amps have you heard driving Statement E2 ? I have tried VTL Wotans on my Statements and they sounded somewhat soft in the bass with a rolled of treble, compared to SS amplification. They do dip very low in impedance
I never heard tubes on Statement E2. I heard Spectral on Statement E2, and I did not care for the sound.
Absolutely agree, i have never heard Spectral amps i liked. I have not heard their latest offerings.
Yes, the CAT gear is pretty good. Infact more so in terms of performance and control with their Preamps. Back in the day we used one partnered with a pair of Mark Levinson monoblocks driving the Infinity RS1B's, certainly a very big soundstage, with great depth and presence. Clarity and definition was ok until we changed over to Apogee Diva's, and later on CLSIIz's. That's just about when I realised this whole level of transparency and fine detail. Never looked back since but it took a while to get to where I'm now.
Cheers to those good old days! Tough times in a world of specs...
RJ
Cheers to those good old days! Tough times in a world of specs...
RJ
Thank you, RJ, for the detailed background explanation. I understand everything now!
I agree on all of your points regarding the critical importance of the output transformers in tube amplifiers. I am glad you still are using tubes in your personal system. It's nice you are getting to experiment with solid-state amplifiers while the tube amplifiers are being taken care of.
(We won't have Pendragons playing music until sometime later this decade.)
Woof, woof back!
Oh! Ok Ron, didn't know the Pendragon's have to wait that long...
What's the hold up? Are you renovating or building a new place? My apologies if I missed something...
Take it easy, later then
RJ
Nothing to apologize for.
Not building; mostly repairing, partially renovating. The 2 year project is taking 5 years and counting.
RJ, which Dartzeel amps are you listening to? I would love to hear them sometime especially on CLX's. How do they compare to other amps you have listened to?
G'day Brad,
The Dartzeel, Momentum, Boulder, and Gryphon were a real treat to listen to on the CLX's. All quite different in nature but pretty much had few things in common: High power, plenty of drive, high current, stable current, and total control on the stats. No issues with its notorious impedence, and an effortless drive. Now I can't remember the exact models, the Dartzeel was one of those older stereo versions NHB something 108 series... (apprx 3yrs old), rated around 150-200w/ch and triples in power down to 2ohms, plus could handle less than 1ohm no issues there, as the CLX's dip to 0.7ohms on the high frequencies, as you know. There was another more affordable integrated amplifier the chappy wanted me to try, 8550 series, said it was newer but actually speaking it wasn't any much cheaper. The stereo version in Aus costs around 90grand! Just for a stereo amp and I believe the integrated version is around 60grand. Even after the change over price, from offering my CJ mono's, it was still a fair amount to consider, and honestly speaking I don't want to sell off my CJ mono's, simply because they're no longer made. After the upgrades, I've done on them and the SE version which was just finalized a few weeks ago, they're one of a kind. So I will be holding onto these for long as possible.
So, overall they had all of the above, power drive and finesse but that was about it! I really liked the Momentums, that was a very special sound, one that I could be pleased with for a very long time. However, my passion has and will always be with tubes. There's just something about that expansive, enveloping midrange that SS devices aren't giving it to me at least. There's a sense of airy openness in the midrange and through stats it's just beautiful. Sure the bass was far more solid thump with SS amplifiers but that doesn't mean tube bass is shabby, it's just different. It goes quite deep on the bass with tubes and the speed and agility is equally there, so I'm not really missing anything. The most important factor for me is that 99.9% of my music tastes have more midrange frequency specs, and so with that combination, having a good sense of LF depth, and smooth extended airy highs where I get that fantastic level of balance and perfect scale from tubes, CJ amplification is my preference.
Perhaps on a second system, comprising of Apogee Diva's, those Dartzeels or Momentums would be superb!
Till then, I'll just sit back and enjoy what I've got! A big woof'n!
RJ
The Dartzeel, Momentum, Boulder, and Gryphon were a real treat to listen to on the CLX's. All quite different in nature but pretty much had few things in common: High power, plenty of drive, high current, stable current, and total control on the stats. No issues with its notorious impedence, and an effortless drive. Now I can't remember the exact models, the Dartzeel was one of those older stereo versions NHB something 108 series... (apprx 3yrs old), rated around 150-200w/ch and triples in power down to 2ohms, plus could handle less than 1ohm no issues there, as the CLX's dip to 0.7ohms on the high frequencies, as you know. There was another more affordable integrated amplifier the chappy wanted me to try, 8550 series, said it was newer but actually speaking it wasn't any much cheaper. The stereo version in Aus costs around 90grand! Just for a stereo amp and I believe the integrated version is around 60grand. Even after the change over price, from offering my CJ mono's, it was still a fair amount to consider, and honestly speaking I don't want to sell off my CJ mono's, simply because they're no longer made. After the upgrades, I've done on them and the SE version which was just finalized a few weeks ago, they're one of a kind. So I will be holding onto these for long as possible.
So, overall they had all of the above, power drive and finesse but that was about it! I really liked the Momentums, that was a very special sound, one that I could be pleased with for a very long time. However, my passion has and will always be with tubes. There's just something about that expansive, enveloping midrange that SS devices aren't giving it to me at least. There's a sense of airy openness in the midrange and through stats it's just beautiful. Sure the bass was far more solid thump with SS amplifiers but that doesn't mean tube bass is shabby, it's just different. It goes quite deep on the bass with tubes and the speed and agility is equally there, so I'm not really missing anything. The most important factor for me is that 99.9% of my music tastes have more midrange frequency specs, and so with that combination, having a good sense of LF depth, and smooth extended airy highs where I get that fantastic level of balance and perfect scale from tubes, CJ amplification is my preference.
Perhaps on a second system, comprising of Apogee Diva's, those Dartzeels or Momentums would be superb!
Till then, I'll just sit back and enjoy what I've got! A big woof'n!
RJ
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One more for the road!
I was just thinking about a certain comment made from that person who highly condemned the CLX's and my particular setup, along with the room and his other numerous negative comments, just thinking about one other comment made that the CLX's have " limitations..."
Well, now that the CJ monoblocks are really beginning to open up, especially after the SE upgrades, all I can say is whatever the "limitations " are is only limited to the recording, nothing else!
With these fine full range stats, basically what goes in comes out! As simple as that. I also believe that these have to be partnered with high quality gear, the better the resolution and transparency of component matching, the more naturalness of tonality you will be rewarded with, absolutely superb!
Whiles my CJ's were away during that 3 month period, I used very top end amplifiers on loan. From Boulder, Dartzeel, Vitus, Gryphon, Momentum, and CJ's very own MF2550SE. These SS amps just controlled and lifted the performance in a class of their own. In my opinion, there was no comparison at all with any of the amplifiers I've auditioned on other panels, including those very large multi-panel types. They can only be equalled or surpassed by their very own brands as the quality and performance of gear rises... such as Relentless, Progression, Boulders top of the line, Gryphon monoblocks, VAL's, VAC monoblocks, CJ's ART300's and so on. That's the level I'm talking about.
It's an absolute joy to hear these differences and learn from the experiences, rather than being cooped up in a music room all your life... like those so called experts who read all the reviews thinking they own the best. They need to venture out and learn from new systems and varied setups, then gather that knowledge and appreciate what others have achieved, rather than cast negative comments. Pathetic!
For considering component upgrades, although source gear, and cable accessories do make a difference, I strongly believe that the amplifiers are the main reasons for overall system performance. Once you get that right then everything else falls into place nicely. It's not necessary to spend a fortune to get highly quality recorded playback. Careful system matching and wise expenditure will get you there but it's a journey. It's also an art form.
Cheers to those systems that are giving you the greatest joy and satisfaction, and most of all the sheer pleasure of great music.
Enjoy those fine tunes! Woofty woof!
RJ
I was just thinking about a certain comment made from that person who highly condemned the CLX's and my particular setup, along with the room and his other numerous negative comments, just thinking about one other comment made that the CLX's have " limitations..."
Well, now that the CJ monoblocks are really beginning to open up, especially after the SE upgrades, all I can say is whatever the "limitations " are is only limited to the recording, nothing else!
With these fine full range stats, basically what goes in comes out! As simple as that. I also believe that these have to be partnered with high quality gear, the better the resolution and transparency of component matching, the more naturalness of tonality you will be rewarded with, absolutely superb!
Whiles my CJ's were away during that 3 month period, I used very top end amplifiers on loan. From Boulder, Dartzeel, Vitus, Gryphon, Momentum, and CJ's very own MF2550SE. These SS amps just controlled and lifted the performance in a class of their own. In my opinion, there was no comparison at all with any of the amplifiers I've auditioned on other panels, including those very large multi-panel types. They can only be equalled or surpassed by their very own brands as the quality and performance of gear rises... such as Relentless, Progression, Boulders top of the line, Gryphon monoblocks, VAL's, VAC monoblocks, CJ's ART300's and so on. That's the level I'm talking about.
It's an absolute joy to hear these differences and learn from the experiences, rather than being cooped up in a music room all your life... like those so called experts who read all the reviews thinking they own the best. They need to venture out and learn from new systems and varied setups, then gather that knowledge and appreciate what others have achieved, rather than cast negative comments. Pathetic!
For considering component upgrades, although source gear, and cable accessories do make a difference, I strongly believe that the amplifiers are the main reasons for overall system performance. Once you get that right then everything else falls into place nicely. It's not necessary to spend a fortune to get highly quality recorded playback. Careful system matching and wise expenditure will get you there but it's a journey. It's also an art form.
Cheers to those systems that are giving you the greatest joy and satisfaction, and most of all the sheer pleasure of great music.
Enjoy those fine tunes! Woofty woof!
RJ
Every body knows of the limitations pure stat speakers have that’s why martin Logan don’t waste there time on them Anymore.of course it’s alright for owners to think there the best and there’s nothing better.i have heard them sound very good imho but my last listen to the clx was horrible.
Move on bigdog if you care so much on other peoples opinion on your system you should see a psychiatrist.I couldn’t give a dam if people say my hifi system sounds terrible and yes I have been told that but it didn’t worry me, because as long as I like it that’s all that matters.sticks and stones may break my bones but words can not hurt me.
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You told me after hearing my 30.7s that your system was a full 50% better than mine I didn’t say any thing negative, I fort that’s fine.
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