80-85 dbC average, early MBL 101's need 85- 90 db to really come alive. But i was comparing CLX to Statement E2 in this thread, not Soundlab or Quad.
Do you have any personal experience with multi amped Martin Logan Statement E2's, Francisco ?
A small upgrade in speakers... The CLXArt a true masterpiece!
- Thread starter Big Dog RJ
- Start date
Do you have any personal experience with multi amped Martin Logan Statement E2's, Francisco ?
G'day folks from down unda... Melbourne is going ok but Sydney is in a bit of a crisis with Covid, that's the latest update if anyone was wondering...
Apart from that, as for me I will summarise:
1. I really don't need to enjoy "real music" at loud levels whatsoever. The majority of my listening sessions are way past midnight, and so the levels I get from "reproduced" music is more than adequate!
2. Note, this is just reproduced music, and not live! There's no system on earth that can recreate the live event, no matter how expensive! That "physics" is very different...
3. I didn't buy the CLX's to want it to sound like a dynamic driver type / box design... or horns for that matter. In which case I wouldn't have them. That's not my type of sound at all!
4. There's really no point in buying a particular type of speaker and toying with them trying to make them sound what they're not! What's the point in that?
5. When I finalise on something, that's the definite type and style of sound I'm after, I'm not interested if it sounds thin, synthetic, kitchen oriented or whatever else people want to label it... simply because of what I've upgraded on it lately, to achieve a custom type of sound, there's no other speakers I'd rather own!
Only a handful of people have listened to this since lately, due to covid restrictions, and all of them said it was unbelievable! I don't require their validation unlike a few others on this forum...
To be able to fully understand what it can do and deliver, can only be understood by those seeking similar experiences.
(* needed to edit something, actually arrived here in 2004 as a student to finish up my MBA. So for three years I was without a system, just a small Sony analog radio).
I've achieved a great length of absolute transparency and fine detail from this particular system, which has been put together after 06, started sourcing gear around 2007... therefore I'm surely NOT hoping that it would ever sound like box types or horns for that matter, hell no!
OTOH, if I did want to try something different and were to go for horns as an entirely different system, I actually like the AG Duo XD's driven with CJ's ART27A, and partnered with the GAT S2, now that was certainly wonderful!
If it was a box/ cabinet type, I would have also liked the Zellatons. BTW, JF uses Zellatons for all his references gear at CJ HQ's, obviously he's one of those perfectionists! Back in the day during messers C & J, they actually used Wilson's for all their references and voicing systems. Now JF is the chief, so he only uses Zellatons. They truly are superb but way out of my finances. So no point in pondering...
I'm just delighted with what I've got and how it delivers the true essence of pure musicality. That's good enough for me, and that's about it.
Happy woof'n!
Cheers, RJ
Apart from that, as for me I will summarise:
1. I really don't need to enjoy "real music" at loud levels whatsoever. The majority of my listening sessions are way past midnight, and so the levels I get from "reproduced" music is more than adequate!
2. Note, this is just reproduced music, and not live! There's no system on earth that can recreate the live event, no matter how expensive! That "physics" is very different...
3. I didn't buy the CLX's to want it to sound like a dynamic driver type / box design... or horns for that matter. In which case I wouldn't have them. That's not my type of sound at all!
4. There's really no point in buying a particular type of speaker and toying with them trying to make them sound what they're not! What's the point in that?
5. When I finalise on something, that's the definite type and style of sound I'm after, I'm not interested if it sounds thin, synthetic, kitchen oriented or whatever else people want to label it... simply because of what I've upgraded on it lately, to achieve a custom type of sound, there's no other speakers I'd rather own!
Only a handful of people have listened to this since lately, due to covid restrictions, and all of them said it was unbelievable! I don't require their validation unlike a few others on this forum...
To be able to fully understand what it can do and deliver, can only be understood by those seeking similar experiences.
(* needed to edit something, actually arrived here in 2004 as a student to finish up my MBA. So for three years I was without a system, just a small Sony analog radio).
I've achieved a great length of absolute transparency and fine detail from this particular system, which has been put together after 06, started sourcing gear around 2007... therefore I'm surely NOT hoping that it would ever sound like box types or horns for that matter, hell no!
OTOH, if I did want to try something different and were to go for horns as an entirely different system, I actually like the AG Duo XD's driven with CJ's ART27A, and partnered with the GAT S2, now that was certainly wonderful!
If it was a box/ cabinet type, I would have also liked the Zellatons. BTW, JF uses Zellatons for all his references gear at CJ HQ's, obviously he's one of those perfectionists! Back in the day during messers C & J, they actually used Wilson's for all their references and voicing systems. Now JF is the chief, so he only uses Zellatons. They truly are superb but way out of my finances. So no point in pondering...
I'm just delighted with what I've got and how it delivers the true essence of pure musicality. That's good enough for me, and that's about it.
Happy woof'n!
Cheers, RJ
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Whenever I get that chance to experience the Statements driven by the Relentless amplifiers and Momentum preamp, it's such an awe-inspiring moment, as if my heart has been placed outside of my body...80-85 dbC average, early MBL 101's need 85- 90 db to really come alive. But i was comparing CLX to Statement E2 in this thread, not Soundlab or Quad.
Been watching too much Netflix these days, 'Queen of the South" I think Theresa Mendoza plays an outstanding role!
Roger that captain! The Statements are my all time true reference, nothing quite compares as yet... although there are some mighty fine systems that can achieve some amazing results in top notch levels of playback, both in terms of absolute music reproduction and fine detail and clarity. For example CLX's... ah! Good one mate!
Cheers, RJ
Yes, that sounds exactly how PW would respond. In fact, waaay back, I had the wonderful opportunity in meeting him, again as a student in London's 1st division playing for Kingsbury rugby, first 15 team. It was a fairly enlightened encounter. His rep Stan, was trying to introduce me from Sri Lanka, saying that I was a big fan of Quad and dedicated dealer of Quad ESL's... PW had a slight hearing issue, so he asked what...!!!? Stan said, "he's from Sri Lanka... tea, tea!" Then PW goes "oh! Cheese! From Swaziland!" So thereafter I was known as the dedicated Quad ESL distributor from Swaziland who specialises in cheese... uh?
That's, ok I guess, I didn't go any further to try to correct PW, I just accepted that he was quite frail and getting on... few years after he passed away. He was an absolute legend, perfected the ESL to deliver such a superb midrange that even to this day, the majority of speakers simply can't match no matter how high tech they are. And that's exactly why I just adore electroststs!
It's different physics as you say, and box types or horns just can't deliver what stats can... that's different physics at play again.
Cheers mate, and most of all, enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
Nice - my first meeting with Peter Walker was also when I was a student. I met him at the Huntingdon factory entrance hall, when buying ESL57 replacement panels and transformers to built Quad replicas ... We talked a little and then he smiled and asked "I hope you not building the speakers, no"? Officially spares were kept for repairs, not to DIY destitute foreign students!
Much later, already a ESL63 owner I met him at a show and congratulated him for the excellent sound he was getting in a poor hotel room with ESL63 and Quad electronics. He smiled again and told me "Ok, I had to fiddle a little with the position and a few pieces of furniture around" . A remarkable person, indeed. The book "The closest approach", written by Ken Kessler, gives us great interviews and details about Peter Walker and the Quad history.
Yes, I had that book as well. In fact it came attached with the ESL 2905's in one of the boxes. I later on visited hometown in 2012 and gifted it to a local chap whom we referred to as the Quad guru. He was not well and upon my return trip to Melb he passed away. I'm just glad that when I presented him that book, the bright look he gave beaming with delight, is the most beautiful thing to experience. He was very very happy and much obliged to hold it in his hand, simply because during one of his last trips to the UK, he had actually met Ken Kessler in person. Go figure!
After his passing, his Mrs. sold off the entire gear, a full array of CJ's vintage Premier line up including the legendary ART preamp. The double stacked Quads and Gradient subs were handed over to his son who now resides in NZ. If I'm correct, he's still using those very same ESL 63's and 57's but not with tube gear, rather with a full line up of Plinius SS amplifiers. I've heard the Plinius line up driving dynamic type speakers, pretty dam impressive! But not with stats, so I wouldn't know. I'm sure he loves it though.
Cheers to P Walker! A genuine legend and a genius!
Now that deserves a mighty WOOF!!!
Best, RJ
After his passing, his Mrs. sold off the entire gear, a full array of CJ's vintage Premier line up including the legendary ART preamp. The double stacked Quads and Gradient subs were handed over to his son who now resides in NZ. If I'm correct, he's still using those very same ESL 63's and 57's but not with tube gear, rather with a full line up of Plinius SS amplifiers. I've heard the Plinius line up driving dynamic type speakers, pretty dam impressive! But not with stats, so I wouldn't know. I'm sure he loves it though.
Cheers to P Walker! A genuine legend and a genius!
Now that deserves a mighty WOOF!!!
Best, RJ
Kenny Kessler also did a similar book on McIntosh, great history and write up. It's really amazing when you get a glimpse of the struggles they had in the past and how their gear has evolved over the years into a legacy or icon should I say. The big Mac book is still with me, I use it as a weight on the shelf to hold the LPs straight, afterall it's not light book! Maybe I could do some serious curls with it. Just saying...
Cheers to Kenny K!
Best, RJ
Cheers to Kenny K!
Best, RJ
I recently got the Kessler book on Audio Research " Making the music glow". Great reading, but most of it is written in a small white font against a black background or black over grey, something that I dislike as it makes it hard to read without reading glasses and plenty of light. Why don't they simply print text in black over white?
Yes, in fact I asked myself the very same question when I flipped through this for the first time.
Then I realised why! The AR logo is in fact White Colour in black background... go figure!
Checked with sources known to Ken K, and they confirmed it was done in tribute to ARC so makes perfect sense.
Cheers, happy reading!
Well, here it is finally after all these years!
Comments such as "thinness, brittle and lacking in weight" kept reminding me of a few things, and yes specially on certain recordings.
Just a superb performance in sub level control with power and finesse! Absolutely no overhang and the seamless integration of ML's Balanced Force subs really is a match made in heaven! Simply outstanding! There are certain recordings that I still prefer the CLX's full range but on others that extra heft is something just extraordinary!
Also the bass doesn't linger around right throughout the recording... unlike other subs I've tried which ruined the mids & highs... this thing propels its bass energy only when called for and when called for, oh boy! does it deliver with a slam! Crystal Clear, high definition and most of all blistering speed! That's what I was looking for, and hats off to ML, very very well done!
Just wanted to mention a huge thank you to my good mates, Kostas, Gary (addiction to hifi), Ev, Mark doc, and the professional team who helped to set up, and offer great advice, you guys are the crew!
Absolutely marvellous! A huge woof'n!!! To all,
Cheers, and enjoy those very fine tunes!
RJ
Comments such as "thinness, brittle and lacking in weight" kept reminding me of a few things, and yes specially on certain recordings.
Just a superb performance in sub level control with power and finesse! Absolutely no overhang and the seamless integration of ML's Balanced Force subs really is a match made in heaven! Simply outstanding! There are certain recordings that I still prefer the CLX's full range but on others that extra heft is something just extraordinary!
Also the bass doesn't linger around right throughout the recording... unlike other subs I've tried which ruined the mids & highs... this thing propels its bass energy only when called for and when called for, oh boy! does it deliver with a slam! Crystal Clear, high definition and most of all blistering speed! That's what I was looking for, and hats off to ML, very very well done!
Just wanted to mention a huge thank you to my good mates, Kostas, Gary (addiction to hifi), Ev, Mark doc, and the professional team who helped to set up, and offer great advice, you guys are the crew!
Absolutely marvellous! A huge woof'n!!! To all,
Cheers, and enjoy those very fine tunes!
RJ
Attachments
That is a wonderful set up, RJ! Congratulations!
WOOF WOOF!
PS: Would you consider a second ML Balanced Force subwoofer to have a stereo configuration?
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Yes, without a doubt!
Thanks maties, always good to receive sincere advice from fellow members who've followed the journey...
Another adjustment we carried out on the custom low pass filters were actually done using vocals and mid bass tunes, not so much low bass. By doing this, we were able to fine tune the overall subs response to the full freq spec, not just the lows. By doing this, it allows the mids & highs to operate freely, open and fully transparent. Most of the time, when subs are added to panels and when you listen to vocals or mids, it's as if the singer is singing behind a curtain... or getting strangled. This is due to the excessive bass energy resonating within cabinets, and it's very noticeable.
That's why when most people listen to panels at first, they immediately call out "no bass!" Simply because it doesn't have those reinforced resonances. So, whenever a sub does this, I can't stand it and its definitely artificial. However, with the BF series from Martin Logan, their low pass filters and settings are so accurate, it's just a pleasure to set according to your room dimensions/ environment, and it doesn't require pulling your hair out!
I'm really impressed with their design, and their dsp engines and software capabilities, especially with the ARC software and PBK modules. These really help towards that extra edge in integration. It's no wonder they sell these alongside the CLX's as one combination, which I never bothered about until now! Better late than ever I guess.
Cheers to all, woofty woof!
RJ
Thanks maties, always good to receive sincere advice from fellow members who've followed the journey...
Another adjustment we carried out on the custom low pass filters were actually done using vocals and mid bass tunes, not so much low bass. By doing this, we were able to fine tune the overall subs response to the full freq spec, not just the lows. By doing this, it allows the mids & highs to operate freely, open and fully transparent. Most of the time, when subs are added to panels and when you listen to vocals or mids, it's as if the singer is singing behind a curtain... or getting strangled. This is due to the excessive bass energy resonating within cabinets, and it's very noticeable.
That's why when most people listen to panels at first, they immediately call out "no bass!" Simply because it doesn't have those reinforced resonances. So, whenever a sub does this, I can't stand it and its definitely artificial. However, with the BF series from Martin Logan, their low pass filters and settings are so accurate, it's just a pleasure to set according to your room dimensions/ environment, and it doesn't require pulling your hair out!
I'm really impressed with their design, and their dsp engines and software capabilities, especially with the ARC software and PBK modules. These really help towards that extra edge in integration. It's no wonder they sell these alongside the CLX's as one combination, which I never bothered about until now! Better late than ever I guess.
Cheers to all, woofty woof!
RJ
A second BF sub... no, not in this particular room as it's not very large. However, in a much larger room perhaps. I've set the settings very low, and as you know from my previous posts, I'm not much of a sub fan nor a user... but just that slight LF detail added with a velvet touch in an iron glove is real smooth.
Cheers, RJ
Cheers, RJ
Hey RJ, congrats on the addition of a ML Balanced Force sub! I didn't see mention of which model you got, the 210 or 212? I've had the 210 for several years and similarly find it excellent, able to integrate equally well with Magnepan 3.7i panels as well as conventional box speakers. Enjoy your newly updated system in the best of health!
- Bill
- Bill
Cheers Bill!
It's the BF210. At one point I did show interest in the 212, as I wanted to get something that was the end game for me, as I've been on a long quest to find the right sub to match with the CLX's. That quest took 3 years!
The BF212 is much more powerful, having dual 850w Class D amps on board, plus the sheer weight and size over 64kg... would've been great in a much larger room. The BF210 is perfect, it's not too big and sits neatly right in the middle, as one set piece that is part of the CLX Art's.
It took so many trials and errors to find the right one, and I'm extremely pleased with its capabilities. An absolute marvel and pleasure to set up. The only thing is, like the rest of the gear, it's fully covered in packing cloth when not in use, this is mainly due to our two curious cats!
I truly hope they don't scratch the surface because the wood grain finish is stunning!
Cheers mate, RJ
There are certain recordings where I can pick up everything and basically nothing's lacking in LF detail, such that the sub has fallen asleep...
One such recording I listened to last night was Cassandra Wilson & Jacy Terrason Rendezvous on Blue Note. A very good recording, overall nice balance and blend of instruments, the sub never kicked in. Goes to show that the CLX's are well capable of 45Hz. Anything just below that you can still hear it but not feel it that much and it slowly diminishes... that's where the sub is needed. It was a great listening session and then I switched over to Larry Carlton and Robben Ford Unplugged, here we go, look out! BF210 supremacy at its finest!
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
One such recording I listened to last night was Cassandra Wilson & Jacy Terrason Rendezvous on Blue Note. A very good recording, overall nice balance and blend of instruments, the sub never kicked in. Goes to show that the CLX's are well capable of 45Hz. Anything just below that you can still hear it but not feel it that much and it slowly diminishes... that's where the sub is needed. It was a great listening session and then I switched over to Larry Carlton and Robben Ford Unplugged, here we go, look out! BF210 supremacy at its finest!
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
Nice to see you’ve added a sub to your CLX - I have 2 JL Audio E110 subs behind my CLXs. Fills the bass in perfectly - no ARC or PBK but I’ve dialed them in with placement, phase adjustment and level.
Nice one Daniel M!
Yes, most set ups I've come across seem to have two subs rather than one. Then again I've come across quite a few where they're using just one BF sub, either a BF210 or BF212. Just a perfect combination and seamless integration.
I did the ARC correction only once but not the PBK as yet... since I'm waiting for the 50hr mark, which is nearing tonight as I type this.
It's really sounding tops now, and things have settled in nicely, such that I needed to reduce levels by one more notch. I'm really impressed with the speed and agility of this particular sub to stat panel integration, couldn't be any happier!
It's a marvellous thing!
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
Yes, most set ups I've come across seem to have two subs rather than one. Then again I've come across quite a few where they're using just one BF sub, either a BF210 or BF212. Just a perfect combination and seamless integration.
I did the ARC correction only once but not the PBK as yet... since I'm waiting for the 50hr mark, which is nearing tonight as I type this.
It's really sounding tops now, and things have settled in nicely, such that I needed to reduce levels by one more notch. I'm really impressed with the speed and agility of this particular sub to stat panel integration, couldn't be any happier!
It's a marvellous thing!
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
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