Accommodation pricing for the industry reviewer's ...your opinion?
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On another thread John72953 states: "Is there a reason every thread gets derailed? We go from the OP to Michele Obama to hamburgers?"
Frankly, I too wander why this is seemingly the case.
Over on that thread, which originally was discussing why reviewers are paid so poorly, the discussion has turned to ' What is the breakdown of a manufacturer's costs and profits' in the high-end business.
Here, we are now discussing whether or not Consumer Reports would make a good reviewing option for high end gear
To try and get back on topic, another thought occurred to me...as an aside to the 'ethical' question of whether or not a reviewer should be given an 'accommodation' price; there is also the question as to who ultimately who pays for said reviewer's 'accommodation'. I'm fairly certain that this cost is most likely built into the price of the equipment by the manufacturer and therefore pushed on to the final consumer...the general public or retail Buyer. I may be wrong about this, so maybe a manufacturer could comment on that.
Frankly, I too wander why this is seemingly the case.
Over on that thread, which originally was discussing why reviewers are paid so poorly, the discussion has turned to ' What is the breakdown of a manufacturer's costs and profits' in the high-end business.
Here, we are now discussing whether or not Consumer Reports would make a good reviewing option for high end gear
To try and get back on topic, another thought occurred to me...as an aside to the 'ethical' question of whether or not a reviewer should be given an 'accommodation' price; there is also the question as to who ultimately who pays for said reviewer's 'accommodation'. I'm fairly certain that this cost is most likely built into the price of the equipment by the manufacturer and therefore pushed on to the final consumer...the general public or retail Buyer. I may be wrong about this, so maybe a manufacturer could comment on that.
On another thread John states "Is there a reason every thread gets derailed? We go from the OP to Michele Obama to hamburgers?"
Frankly, I too wander why this is seemingly the case.
Over on that thread, which originally was discussing why reviewers are paid so poorly, the discussion has turned to ' What is the breakdown of a manufacturer's costs and profits' in the high-end business.
Here, we are now discussing whether or not Consumer Reports would make a good reviewing option for high end gear
To try and get back on topic, another thought occurred to me...as an aside to the 'ethical' question of whether or not a reviewer should be given an 'accommodation' price; there is also the question as to who ultimately who pays for said reviewer's 'accommodation'. I'm fairly certain that this cost is most likely built into the price of the equipment by the manufacturer and therefore pushed on to the final consumer...the general public or retail Buyer. I may be wrong about this, so maybe a manufacturer could comment on that.
I think that accomodation costs are but a smudge on the account ledger. Packing. Ad costs. Shipping. Insurance. Etc. Etc. These are real costs.
Yes a 'smudge' Myles, BUT does that 'smudge' really need to be there? And who do you think is paying for that 'smudge'
On the thread..."Why are reviewer's paid so poorly?", Steve Williams posts:
"Davey, I agree 100%. I don't care if it's Stereophile, TAS, or even Soundstage who try to tell us how noble they are for admitting they buy at 50% off and then sell one year later and if lucky break even but hastily state that they purchase with their own money. Wheew, thank goodness for that as I guess we wouldn't want to spend some one else's money
I don't give a rat's ass about the proclamations of these reviewers that they are so upfront with us by admitting they get an accommodation pricing of 50% and because they have so admitted and that they take nothing in on permanent loan that this makes everything right. I say "give me a break"
This is what is destroying the highend industry and IMO it is nothing more than pandering between the reviewers and the manufacturers.
I still want to know what the requirements are to be a reviewer because as jtinn so eloquently stated, "everyone is a reviewer" nowadays.
No brownie points are logged in my book by reviewers coming forward and wowing us with them baring their souls and admit proudly that they get 50% off BUT never take anything in on permanent loan and then try to gain readers' acceptance by claiming how virtuous they are by so writing this over and over. It seems as if they are trying to convince themselves that this makes it right rather than convincing us with their exultations
Sorry, but this is what is killing the industry and if some of you proud gentleman who are reviewers and post incessantly as to how right it is, I say think again. It is nothing more than a blatant abuse of the system. Writing about it doesn't make it right."
I absolutely agree 100% with what he stated..
"Davey, I agree 100%. I don't care if it's Stereophile, TAS, or even Soundstage who try to tell us how noble they are for admitting they buy at 50% off and then sell one year later and if lucky break even but hastily state that they purchase with their own money. Wheew, thank goodness for that as I guess we wouldn't want to spend some one else's money
I don't give a rat's ass about the proclamations of these reviewers that they are so upfront with us by admitting they get an accommodation pricing of 50% and because they have so admitted and that they take nothing in on permanent loan that this makes everything right. I say "give me a break"
This is what is destroying the highend industry and IMO it is nothing more than pandering between the reviewers and the manufacturers.
I still want to know what the requirements are to be a reviewer because as jtinn so eloquently stated, "everyone is a reviewer" nowadays.
No brownie points are logged in my book by reviewers coming forward and wowing us with them baring their souls and admit proudly that they get 50% off BUT never take anything in on permanent loan and then try to gain readers' acceptance by claiming how virtuous they are by so writing this over and over. It seems as if they are trying to convince themselves that this makes it right rather than convincing us with their exultations
Sorry, but this is what is killing the industry and if some of you proud gentleman who are reviewers and post incessantly as to how right it is, I say think again. It is nothing more than a blatant abuse of the system. Writing about it doesn't make it right."
I absolutely agree 100% with what he stated..
While I mostly agree with the comments that Davey and Steve posted so far, one thing should be pointed out that holds true for any occupation. No matter what you do, whether it's the occupation or the company one works for, there are usually always perks associated with it. Should we not, in fairness, allow reviewers to receive those same perks?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Perhaps you are comparing apples and oranges there John because as so prpoerly pointed out by jtinn et al, everyone is a reviewer.
I have still to have anyone tell me what prerequisites there are for a reviewer? Should someone with no credentials be allowed to build an ultrahighend system becaue he declares that he is now a reviewer and BTW, he doesn't have to do a darn thing except show his badge that he is a reviewer and receive a 50% accommodation
Or how about a famous reviewer getting an over $10OK turntable for $18K or a recent (occasional) reviewer friend of mine who bought an over $150K pair of speakers for $40K
I have still to have anyone tell me what prerequisites there are for a reviewer? Should someone with no credentials be allowed to build an ultrahighend system becaue he declares that he is now a reviewer and BTW, he doesn't have to do a darn thing except show his badge that he is a reviewer and receive a 50% accommodation
Or how about a famous reviewer getting an over $10OK turntable for $18K or a recent (occasional) reviewer friend of mine who bought an over $150K pair of speakers for $40K
That would have been my question as well... Else I don't see how a magazine reviewing High End products would exist .. There has tro be incentives to review and regardless of what we would like to think .. Reviewing serves a function: That of informing ... whether they acquit themselves of such is another matter... I must say that aside from that a reviewer credibility is his/her greatest asset and writing a glorious report just to turn around and make some dollars on a gear is a sure way to lose it quickly IMO or at least to face the great risk of losing it; but it seems that has been done with scarcely a dent into the reviewer position within the magazine ...
Interestingly enough, the government has effectively abolished accomodation pricing in the medical profession. If you accept Medicare patients, you can't provide professional courtesy to your collegues because the differential pricing is seen as 'discriminatory' by the government. There are draconian penalties, potentially including jail time (although I'm unaware of anyone going to jail for this).
There has also been increasing pressure for disclosure of all relationships between vendors and physicians, especially involving research relationships. This has arisen secondary to shoddy and even falsified research, no doubt influenced by cozy industry-physician relationships. Certainly one of the less noble corners of my profession. I personally don't even accept a donut from a vendor anymore...
There has also been increasing pressure for disclosure of all relationships between vendors and physicians, especially involving research relationships. This has arisen secondary to shoddy and even falsified research, no doubt influenced by cozy industry-physician relationships. Certainly one of the less noble corners of my profession. I personally don't even accept a donut from a vendor anymore...
Hi
I wanted to post this earlier and erased it from my previous post but here I go
The unfortunate conclusion to me at the very least is that we have moved into the Luxury item Industry with all the subjectivities and gray areas.. High End Audio has been in there for some years now .. I would like to believe the contrary the facts are there to prove me wrong ..
I wanted to post this earlier and erased it from my previous post but here I go
The unfortunate conclusion to me at the very least is that we have moved into the Luxury item Industry with all the subjectivities and gray areas.. High End Audio has been in there for some years now .. I would like to believe the contrary the facts are there to prove me wrong ..
Frantz, again, I think this is a little off-topic-- but
It actually seems to me the under lying reason that high-end is contracting for the moment
( notice I do not say dying) is simply due to the 'times that we live in'.
By this I mean that back 'in the day', the general public frankly had far less in the way of electronics/gadgetry and thereby access to music to amuse themselves with and so high-end was able to gain more of a foothold.. Today, there are many more ways to acquire music and listen than ever before. 'In the day' the high end retailer/and or manufacturer, didn't have to compete with ipods, ipads, PC systems, cyber space and on and on.
While many in the high end are now incorporating these technologies into their business plans, I think that the diversity has, initially at least, hurt the industry-- just IMHO
It actually seems to me the under lying reason that high-end is contracting for the moment
( notice I do not say dying) is simply due to the 'times that we live in'.
By this I mean that back 'in the day', the general public frankly had far less in the way of electronics/gadgetry and thereby access to music to amuse themselves with and so high-end was able to gain more of a foothold.. Today, there are many more ways to acquire music and listen than ever before. 'In the day' the high end retailer/and or manufacturer, didn't have to compete with ipods, ipads, PC systems, cyber space and on and on.
While many in the high end are now incorporating these technologies into their business plans, I think that the diversity has, initially at least, hurt the industry-- just IMHO
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
OK... some credentials for Steve...
To be called a "reviewer", you must:
1. Be a musician
2. Have a purpose built listening room
3. Attend at least 6 live events per year
4. Submit and publish a listening test or have a tonemeister degree
finally
Review no better equipment than what you already have! (ie... don't review a $3k powercord on a mid-fi Sony/Yamaha CD player)
Then you can recieve accomodation pricing only on what you review and can sell only at manufacturer's approved price
To be called a "reviewer", you must:
1. Be a musician
2. Have a purpose built listening room
3. Attend at least 6 live events per year
4. Submit and publish a listening test or have a tonemeister degree
finally
Review no better equipment than what you already have! (ie... don't review a $3k powercord on a mid-fi Sony/Yamaha CD player)
Then you can recieve accomodation pricing only on what you review and can sell only at manufacturer's approved price
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
It would certainly weed out every Tom/Dick/Harry that think they're a reviewer and some credibility can be established in this industry.
What "part" don't you like? Reviewers need be held accountable and then maybe they could bet paid better.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Well musicans know the true sound differences between different instruments and would be able to tell if the system was coloring the tone or being true to the sonority. Musicians would know if the instrument could actually make certain "noises" and be able to differentiate between that and system malfunction.
I was just giving a start of credentials. Maybe you don't NEED to be a musician, but I'd give more credibility to a reviewer if they were.
That's not what you posted, however I can understand why you would be more prone to accept a review from one. Fair enough.
I agree with most of that. I don't know if one must be a proficient musician to be a good listener, though it surely helps. But I do think musical aptitude is mandatory. A lot of people have musical talent, but never put in the hours to become proficient. So my test would be to ask them to sing a scale. If they can hit the notes in tune, no matter how poor the timbre, I'm satisfied.
And I surely agree about needing a good room. I crack up when I read magazine reviews citing this speaker or that's imaging, but under "associated equipment" I see $20,000 worth of wires and magic isolation pads, but not one piece of acoustic treatment. If a reviewer doesn't have at least minimal absorption at the side-wall reflection points, they don't even know what imaging is.
--Ethan
Very good post and at least as tarting point ...
I would take out #1.. Another nitpick.. I am not sure I can agree with that
Of course the example you gave is an extreme ... Price is an indication of "best" .. A quick example the very speakers you use in your Mastering Room, the MM3, by all accounts have very few peers and challenge/surpass models costing several multiple of its MSRP ...
The tonmeister degree seems to be a requisite IMO... One must learn to listen , there is such a thing as a properly trained listener ..
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