Actual number of tapes??

Foxbat

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I don't think that would be fair to them and to people here... there is always a chance it is just me, as some of my conclusions are purely subjective, of course. But others are totally objective - for instance, when I pay that kind of a price, I expect a smooth pack, not something you can barely keep together.
 

Ron Resnick

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Both experienced tape aficionados and novices probably are aware of how mysterious, opaque and "secret club-like" the sources of tapes can seem to novices. (Obviously I am not talking about Analogue Productions which is easy to find and transparent and honest about tapes and easy to purchase tapes from.)

Jonathan Valin's tape list is good if it allows people to discover and purchase tapes they did not know were available. But, in my opinion, his tape list is also bad if it promotes people in the tape selling business who are not honest about the provenance of the tapes they are selling. Jonathan's list gives the tape purveyors on that list the imprimatur of legitimacy.

I think Jonathan's tape list should identify which tapes he believes are copies of analog tapes, and which tapes he believes are recorded from CDs or SACDs.* And if not tape by tape, Jonathan could indicate which tape purveyors declare themselves to be selling only tapes which are copies of analog tapes, and which tape purveyors are not willing to make this representation.

I think it is bad for the growing high-end audio hobbyist tape "community" if tape novices are being led to buy something which has a different provenance than they assume it to have.

*I recognize the possibility that some tape purchasers may not care about the provenance or the nature of the tapes they are purchasing. Perhaps all they want is to play tape on a tape machine, and they don't care whether the music they are playing was recorded to their tape by an analog tape to analog tape dubbing process or by an CD or SACD to tape copying process.
 
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Edward Pong

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I'm not sure if this is appropriate, but along these same lines, there are companies copying their digital recordings onto tape and marketing them as actual master tapes not copies of master tapes, to just piggyback on this tape resurgence. Maybe technically they are not wrong, however, the public's assumption on buying a master tape copy, is the master recording was done on analogue tape. I feel this is very misleading to the uninformed looking to buy tape & unfair to the companies actually recording with analogue tape....

Ed
 

Ron Resnick

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I'm not sure if this is appropriate, but along these same lines, there are companies copying their digital recordings onto tape and marketing them as actual master tapes not copies of master tapes, to just piggyback on this tape resurgence. Maybe technically they are not wrong, however, the public's assumption on buying a master tape copy, is the master recording was done on analogue tape. I feel this is very misleading to the uninformed looking to buy tape & unfair to the companies actually recording with analogue tape....

Ed
I agree with you. "[C]opying their digital recordings onto tape and marketing them as actual master tapes not copies of master tapes" is false and misleading; it is fraud.
 
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Foxbat

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I don't necessarily see a tight connection there. The program origin and the delivery mechanism are not related, so as long as there is clear disclosure I don't see any issue.
 

Ron Resnick

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so as long as there is clear disclosure I don't see any issue.
?

Ed's point is that there is not "clear disclosure."
 

Edward Pong

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I don't want to say too much but I saw 1 instance where the vendor was actually making the point you are not getting a copy of the master tape but the actual master tape... that is misleading...
 

Foxbat

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Ron, we are coflating different things here. Misleading is not acceptable, we all agree on that, but I am aware of at least one company that discloses the presence of digital in its process - and actually their tapes sound quite good. I see nothing wrong with offering such product.
 

adrianywu

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I am not sure what is the value of offering tape copies of digital recordings. I guess some people argue that not everyone can afford top of the range digital playback equipment, and playing a tape transferred with high end professional equipment is one way to achieve the same result. I have not heard the Patricia Barber tapes, for example, and would be interested to hear the result. At the other extreme are the commercial 4-track 7.5 ips tapes. Many excellent recordings from the 1950s and 1960s are available in this format, and they can often be bought for relatively little money. I find the Decca/London titles manufactured by Ampex particularly excellent. Why does anyone need to buy tapes of questionable provenance for a lot more money ?
 

Foxbat

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Recordings are much more than the format used... there are millions of awful purely analog ones out there, and there are excellent digital recordings, it is all in the details.

Just to clarify - we are NOT talking about tapes of questionable provenance. But digitally recorded music on 15ips tapes CAN sound incredibly good - witness such examples as the Barber issues and some other tapes and LP's.

Much better, in fact, than many "copies of production masters" flooding Europe.
 

Edward Pong

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Jun 24, 2013
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Recordings are much more than the format used... there are millions of awful purely analog ones out there, and there are excellent digital recordings, it is all in the details.

Just to clarify - we are NOT talking about tapes of questionable provenance. But digitally recorded music on 15ips tapes CAN sound incredibly good - witness such examples as the Barber issues and some other tapes and LP's.

Much better, in fact, than many "copies of production masters" flooding Europe.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong or bad with copying a master digital recording on a tape for sale, only state openly the master recording was digital & not imply they are actually selling an actual master tape", not a copy of a master tape. I guess, the assumption is that a master tape was actually the original recording made with a tape deck...
The cost of a tape copy of a digital recording should not cost the same as the price of a tape copy of an original master tape.... IMHO

Ed
 

Mike Lavigne

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i do think a digital step is significant in regards to tape provenance. OTOH there are a few different categories......where the degree of potential for misrepresentation varies.

1--digitally sourced recordings mastered to tape; examples---Cafe Blue, Famous Blue Raincoat, Brothers In Arms........

buyers either know or should know about the digital role with these type tapes. but still how close to that master tape are the dubs? and are they clearly better than the vinyl versions?

2--analog recordings mastered to analog from the golden era. but the tape is transferred from a digital file. might be 4xdsd and enhanced. but this is a bad situation. i have a few of those in my 200+ tape albums. was not aware at point of acquisition. not happy about it. moved on and just don't think about it. in these cases, my vinyl is better.

3---current recordings to digital but offered on tape. the issue is that sometimes the digital sourcing is not clearly disclosed. or; in other cases it's featured. either way, i just don't like it.

it's certainly possible that tapes with a digital component might be perceived to sound great. but by whom? based on what reference? our only defense is hopefully we have a vinyl pressing to compare to see how it measures up. which is my primary way to judge.

the other way is simply enough listening to the real deal over time separates the wheat from the chaff. i do find that mostly it's not that hard to hear it. and i have zero interest in owning tapes where it's a modern recording and digital sourced. the way it works out mostly musically those tapes are not that desirable to me either. tape for tape's sake is a waste of dollars.....when you have great vinyl and digital sources. maybe if i did not have good vinyl or digital i might see it differently.

and btw; pure analog is not any guarantee of great sound. but it does raise the ceiling for how great it MIGHT be.

having a tape source like Ed's Ultra Analog classical recordings where it's both great music, but also done with love and excellent analog recording and mastering is precious to me.
 
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adrianywu

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Nov 15, 2021
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i do think a digital step is significant in regards to tape provenance. OTOH there are a few different categories......where the degree of potential for misrepresentation varies.

1--digitally sourced recordings mastered to tape; examples---Cafe Blue, Famous Blue Raincoat, Brothers In Arms........

buyers either know or should know about the digital role with these type tapes. but still how close to that master tape are the dubs? and are they clearly better than the vinyl versions?

2--analog recordings mastered to analog from the golden era. but the tape is transferred from a digital file. might be 4xdsd and enhanced. but this is a bad situation. i have a few of those in my 200+ tape albums. was not aware at point of acquisition. not happy about it. moved on and just don't think about it. in these cases, my vinyl is better.

3---current recordings to digital but offered on tape. the issue is that sometimes the digital sourcing is not clearly disclosed. or; in other cases it's featured. either way, i just don't like it.

it's certainly possible that tapes with a digital component might be perceived to sound great. but by whom? based on what reference? our only defense is hopefully we have a vinyl pressing to compare to see how it measures up. which is my primary way to judge.

the other way is simply enough listening to the real deal over time separates the wheat from the chaff. i do find that mostly it's not that hard to hear it. and i have zero interest in owning tapes where it's a modern recording and digital sourced. the way it works out mostly musically those tapes are not that desirable to me either. tape for tape's sake is a waste of dollars.....when you have great vinyl and digital sources. maybe if i did not have good vinyl or digital i might see it differently.

and btw; pure analog is not any guarantee of great sound. but it does raise the ceiling for how great it MIGHT be.

having a tape source like Ed's Ultra Analog classical recordings where it's both great music, but also done with love and excellent analog recording and mastering is precious to me.
I agree. I buy tapes to get as close as possible to the original sound of these classic recordings of Heifetz, Oistrahk, Callas, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd etc. These recordings were made with analogue tape, and having the tapes cuts out the vagaries of the mastering to vinyl process. Transferring these tapes to high rate DSD isn't bad either, to reduce the inconvenience and wear of tape playback. Not sure about the purpose of transferring digital files to tapes...... When I make recordings, I always try to use both DSD and analogue tape.
 
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astrotoy

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One late comment on this thread. I do have several tapes that were made from digital masters or analogue tapes made from digital masters. For the tapes I have, I believe that the digital masters were never released to the general public, only CD or other lower resolution digital versions, along with vinyl pressings. So tape dubs that end users could make of these albums from digital releases (like CD, SACD, higher rez downloads) would not be the same as from the original digital masters. Larry
 

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