Laughing Out Loud. So only two variables at a time are allowed? You don’t get it and judging for how well you have failed to see the fallacy in your approach, you never will. The manufacturers and dealers are having a field day with you.
Alexx V arrive in NJ
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Laughing Out Loud. So only two variables at a time are allowed? You don’t get it and judging for how well you have failed to see the fallacy in your approach, you never will. The manufacturers and dealers are having a field day with you.
Actually, you have just neatly illustrated the validity of my exact point and that of others. You were the one who wanted only ONE variable (not even 2 let alone 3.) Your original suggestion was to evaluate the amp WITHOUT moving the speakers. That is even worse.
Oh My God. Let me spell it out clearly, anything more than just swapping the amplifiers invalidates any conclusions derived from comparing the amplifiers in the system. Please don’t twist my words, I have been very clear from the start.
Let’s get back on track: Marty thank you for taking the time to put together this detailed summary. Much appreciated.
And yet we say that moving a speaker 2 inches with Amp B would still result in someone keeping Amp A and having inferior sound? How does that make any sense? It cannot. That is the point. You cannot evaluate the amp in absolute isolation because there is no such thing when the ultimate goal is to get the system to sound its best.
One either evaluates both amps with NO adjustments to the system. And one ends up with the inferior result (Amp A and keeping the speaker 2 inches back).
Or one is prepared to do some level of adjustments to the placement of the speakers to optimize for either amp. And then you make the right choice, but you had to do some adjustments to get there (ie, not just one variable).
One can choose either option above but not both. And only the latter choice results in better sound.
Carlos, did you forget to take your meds today?
I find most reviews to be close to useless other than entertainment and audio porn. I have little faith in most reviewers abilities, knowledge and taste. I generally view reviewers as marketeers. I don't know how many times I have tried a very highly reviewed product, only to find it does not do anything for me at all.
Gotta agree with Carlos here. For years readers have seen me use the term "single variable" experiment. This has been the most time-honored and effective way to rule out the null hypothesis in almost any scientific experiment. Of course, this is not infallible as the hypothesis tested may be wrong, or the experimental conditions used are not optimum for what is being tested. But in general, it's a pretty solid approach that's very useful. At least for me.
Marty , i hereby would suggest you become a reviewer in your spare time ,lol
Excellently written , i look forward to the Memphisto review .
Buying stuff for your own system ( putting boots on the ground ) is something else then just casually listen to a component in someone else his system .
When you put your own $$ down it has to deliver
Anymore votes ?
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100% agree Peter. If a new amp is better, it will sound better when you just swap amps. If it doesn't and you look to move speakers around the room to get these amps to sound better - they probably are not better. That seems arse backwards indeed.
By all means move the speakers around later and they may sound better.
Agreed. But what could change amps output during swaps is the preamp. It is possible, that one amp shows less bass or drive due to the preamp synergy.
That however is not applicable here, because as Marty said, CH manual clearly states you have to change the feedback for more grip and he could get the grip at 14%. Also, it is a 3 amps to one amp compare. And the Soulution pre worked with 3 amps.
of course Ked. but at 14% everything else was not good enough.
But what we are talking about is how a new amp sounds in " your " system. yes the pre amp could change the sound vs another pre amp in another system.. But, imo if you have to start moving speakers, thinking about preamp influences to try and get a highly regarded amp to sound better - it is arse backwards.
It's its not better in your system, time to try something else - which is what Marty has done and the bass was better in 3 other amps. There have been similar documented issues with the Audionet HUMBOLDT and Wilson speakers as they do not drive speakers that go well under 4ohms in the bass region.
Almost but not quite, Ked. If I could get that kind of "grip", (the JC1+/701/Mephisto kind) I wouldn't have parted with the amps!!
Hi Marty, thanks for the considered response. While the practice of a reviewer running a reference system, and reviewing on a simple product replacement basis is widespread, it doesn't make it right. The same thing applies in dealers, where product auditions generally follow the same path. Why? Because it's easy and it at least appears to limit the variables. However, when I receive a product for review I have always considered it my first responsibility to achieve that product's maximum possible performance. In the case of a speaker, that demands a full set up, possibly in more than one room, the use with a number of different driving amplifiers and source components, with adjustments along the way. An amplifier will typically be used with a range of different pre-amps (unless a matching unit has been supplied) as well as several different speakers. Of course, when an amp is first installed, it will be with the existing speaker set up, so whether or not the system benefits from repositioning the speakers is pretty obvious.
Over the course of a year I receive a large number of both amplifiers and speakers. Being in the fortunate position of having a large listening room with roll-in access, those often tend to be the largest and heaviest units. The wider the bandwidth of the speaker, the more critical is its positioning, the more necessary its adjustment to accommodate different amp(s) or cable combinations. So, you see, I have done the experiment - many, many times.
I merely offered this perspective in the spirit of possibly explaining your experience - an experience which certainly seems singular as regards the M10. Do I believe that there is something toxic in the M10/Alexx V combination, something that's absent from (the even more demanding) M10/XVX pairing? No. Do I believe that, had you experimented with speaker positioning, your M10 experience would have been significantly improved? Yes. Do I believe that individually adjusting the speaker positioning to suit the Mephisto, JC1+ and Soulution amps would have elevated the performance in each case? Absolutely. And isn't performance what this is all about? You can't listen to a product, no matter how hard you try. You can only listen to a system. If the system works better with a speaker adjustment to accommodate a new amp, I for one am not going to leave the speakers where they were, on the basis that moving them might offend some narrow, pseudo-scientific diktat. The notion of sticking to a single variable might be laudable in theory, but when it comes down to it, in the context of a hi-fi system it is virtually impossible to achieve, for the reasons that I and others have explained. Any 'experimental protocol' that involves a pair of speakers, a room and a set of ears to do the measuring is flawed at best, but proper observational techniques and strict methodology go some way towards compensating. Those who have experienced a system performance (rather than individual product) focussed approach have generally been surprised and impressed by both the results and the accuracy/transferability of the conclusions reached. I just wonder what might have been achieved in your set up with this approach?
Do we know at all whether Marty did or didn't move his Alexx's as part of his trying to make the CH P amps work with them?
Hi Marty,
Thanks for weighing in here. Your methods are meticulous in the honorable extreme, and I laud that. The key as you say is that it assumes the entire rest of the set up is 'perfect'...and therefore testing the 2 amps within the perfect setup is because the ONLY thing you wish to evaluate is the amp within that perfectly rigid system. It does not rule out the possibility that the system (with all of its variables) happened to be set up to accommodate for a vagary somewhere in the system.
And while that opens up a big bowl of spaghetti...the fortunate thing is that this is NOT a random variable system...most of the components will operate within a pretty tight tolerance. So the idea of NOT moving anything else about is a perfectly good way to begin. And for those not seeking the ultimate extreme in performance (and only 'excellent performance'), its also a perfectly good way to end. (And that includes me for the most part.)
The key is how we ensure that the comparison of 2 amps within a given system is 'as perfect as possible'. Tough.
In our system, when we switched from Gryphon to Robert Koda, we absolutely plopped it in with no other changes...to understand the direct impact of the amp itself. Given that the sound is better I am of course satisfied.
The question of course now, is whether there is a small increment more in performance or not relating to finetuning the speaker now to the amp. I also have asked the Wilson distributor (who supports the approach at no extra cost to me) to come back AFTER the amps have bedded in to fine-tune again. I suspect not much will change, but lets see...Pedro is well respected for his ear and technical understanding of the Wilsons.
last try lol I promise
let’s use Marty as the example after all he created this mess.
so Marty buys new speakers sets them up. better then the old ones. But still feels there is something more to have
He hears his speakers and preamp with a new amp one he might consider
What he hears has what he feels he is missing. so he gets a demo of the new amp. places it in his system. it has many nice sounds but does have some bumps in tone. is this demo over ? Does he not try any thing with placement of his speakers ? in a real world he should but do we all do this no. heck my speakers are over 1500 pounds but if one wants to be true to know if it can be better then his current sound and possible move to what he heard to make him try this new amp yes he must. but audio cars most all luxery items need to be felt by us alone.
no matter who tells us I’m the end it’s us who must agree. so of Marty says he is with Carlos I must agree with his view. But having said this the man Roy had to make his stance one some here may agree with or disagree. cudos to him to get into the lions den
let’s use Marty as the example after all he created this mess.
so Marty buys new speakers sets them up. better then the old ones. But still feels there is something more to have
He hears his speakers and preamp with a new amp one he might consider
What he hears has what he feels he is missing. so he gets a demo of the new amp. places it in his system. it has many nice sounds but does have some bumps in tone. is this demo over ? Does he not try any thing with placement of his speakers ? in a real world he should but do we all do this no. heck my speakers are over 1500 pounds but if one wants to be true to know if it can be better then his current sound and possible move to what he heard to make him try this new amp yes he must. but audio cars most all luxery items need to be felt by us alone.
no matter who tells us I’m the end it’s us who must agree. so of Marty says he is with Carlos I must agree with his view. But having said this the man Roy had to make his stance one some here may agree with or disagree. cudos to him to get into the lions den