Interesting. When you can I would enjoy hearing your thoughts and why you chose the M35. When and if you auditioned.
Box to dipole panel is curious.
Box to dipole panel is curious.
All NEW Final Audio Model 15 Electrostatic Loudspeakers Review : Taking Electrostatic Loudspeakers To A Whole New Level !
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The only dipole I've tried to date was a much older Martin Logan hybrid.
I remember it sounding excellent and so I'm chasing that feeling again.
My assumption is that the M35 will replace my Focals, but I suppose only time will tell...
At the 380 hour mark with M35. Got the soundstage dialed in. I believe these are exciting at least one bass room node. Had to move some items to other parts of room due to mechanical resonances, buzzing on certain bass notes. Buzzing was not the M35. My side walls are lined with quasi-ribbon drivers and speakers. The M35 has warmed to the Pass Labs 250.8 or I am getting used to their sound when powered by the 250.8.
The Thresholds are still preferred by this listener. Tighter bass and more prominent highs.
The Thresholds are still preferred by this listener. Tighter bass and more prominent highs.
With stats, I prefer detail over musical. I like the wave launch because my speakers are in a large listening area and the music doesn't fall apart when I am far away. Last summer, I noticed this post (attached) and I agree with it.
Is it about time for photos and discussions about what makes this speaker outstanding or falling short?
I have a second, musical system upstairs which is Fostex based so I do appreciate musical.
Is it about time for photos and discussions about what makes this speaker outstanding or falling short?
I have a second, musical system upstairs which is Fostex based so I do appreciate musical.
Attachments
Any comparison between the WR1 and M35?
Obviously, there's a price gap there... but I am still very curious.
My recommendation is to find a way to audition both. Both demonstrate what can be achieved with an ESL through engineering and material choices. Words are not enough!
That says a lot, too, though.
I'm sure they are both impressive, but the ability of the M35 to even be a part of the competition at a fraction of the price is awesome.
How is the sound of the Popori Electrostatic as compared to a box speaker? What did you compare the WR1 to before buying it? how is the bass? Popori claims a very deep bass extension unlike other electrostatic speakers. do you agree? Is a subwoofer necessary to accompany them? Is the "sweet spot" very narrow?
TIA.
Sweet spot is NOT narrow. But that is a quality of all new electrostatic designs. No subwoofer need apply but that is purely personal taste.
Bass extension is excellent with M35 and Popori. I do not do box speakers. I am in an electrostatic speaker phase. Planar magnetic are competitive alternatives. Magnepan and Eminent Technology will always warm my heart. Gave up on cones and domes in boxes MANY years ago. I'm not saying box speakers cannot be enjoyed but open baffle designs rule in my world. I am a big fan and owner of the Linkwitz Lab lx521.4. That is a design that uses cones and domes but in an open baffle configuration. I have owned or listened to many open box, dipole, panel designs over the east 50 years. Popori and Final-Audio are in league to themselves.
In the end it still depends on one's budget and the deal they can negotiate. Oh; and the ability to fight the urge to cram too much speaker in too small of room.
Bass extension is excellent with M35 and Popori. I do not do box speakers. I am in an electrostatic speaker phase. Planar magnetic are competitive alternatives. Magnepan and Eminent Technology will always warm my heart. Gave up on cones and domes in boxes MANY years ago. I'm not saying box speakers cannot be enjoyed but open baffle designs rule in my world. I am a big fan and owner of the Linkwitz Lab lx521.4. That is a design that uses cones and domes but in an open baffle configuration. I have owned or listened to many open box, dipole, panel designs over the east 50 years. Popori and Final-Audio are in league to themselves.
In the end it still depends on one's budget and the deal they can negotiate. Oh; and the ability to fight the urge to cram too much speaker in too small of room.
I got my Final M35 speakers about 4 weeks after @Riverdinaudio and they have surpassed 300 hours and I thought I would share my experience with how the speakers changed during the burn-in process over the past 4 weeks. They have replaced my Magnepan 20.7s and I have had the chance to try them with several different amplifiers although I have yet to settle on what amp sounds the best with them.
Straight out of the box the speakers were very ordinary sounding and quite disappointing. Soundstage was small, congested and shallow, tone was thin and lacked color and the dynamics and highs were poor. About the only encouraging thing when they were new was a promising bottom end. I started playing them 12-16 hours a day at a variety of listening levels. They began improving quickly and my notes say that the tone started improving after 16 hours but the soundstage was still lacking. However, even after a couple of days of playing the M35s had started showing promise.
By 50 hours I noted that the speakers had continued to improve with better tonal color and density and I was finally getting a soundstage with the kind of width I had with the 20.7s but height was still not as good and they still sounded fairly flat. Bass was strong and seemed to already be a nice improvement over the 20.7s. They still lacked mid-range richness and texture and the highs didn't sparkle and they lacked the sense of air the 20.7s brought.
At 85 hours the bass was clearly better than the 20.7s, treble and highs were still worse but improving. Overall the tone was good but lacked a little of that lush magic I was getting with the 20.7s which seemed to be due to worse decay and a feeling of tightness in the music. The Teonex membrane that is used in the M35s is very lightweight but quite stiff and it simply takes a long time to start to loosen up and sound right. That also meant the dynamics, attack and transients were still not at the levels I enjoyed with the 20.7s. So at 85 hours the M35s lacked some excitement, but overall the M35s started to be competitive with the 20.7s. The purity and transparency of the electrostatic panel was becoming more evident and musical details were very well placed and defined. The soundstage still lacked some of that height the 20.7s are famous for but otherwise it was competitive and moving in the right direction.
100+ hours seemed to be a tipping point with the speakers finally sounding good and I stopped worrying about whether I was going to have to take advantage of the 30 day return policy. The rate of change was slowing but the speakers continued to show good improvement. After 8 days of playing I was starting to play tracks that sounded definitively better on the M35s than they had on the 20.7s. The only area the M35s seemed clearly worse was in the extreme highs which lacked some of the sparkle that fantastic ribbon tweeter in the 20.7s has. At this point I began optimizing the position of the M35s by tweaking the toe in a little each day which helped improve the soundstage further.
At 200 hours I wrote a friend that "The M35s sound good. I would say in most respects they are better than the 20.7s, and in particular the bass is quite a bit better, and I think the overall tonality is probably better. Weaknesses continue to be dynamics, slam, attack and transients, but I'm not sure that they are any worse than the 20.7s in those regards. Very top end treble is probably not as good." By 200 hours the soundstage had actually begun to exceed the size of the 20.7s and was showing a degree of depth I had not heard in my room. The clarity and transparency of the speakers was becoming very evident and with more play time things like female vocals, cellos, guitar plucks and the sound of a drum skin were all excellent. At 200 hours it was clear to me that the M35s were better than the 20.7s in all the ways that were important to me with the exception of the delicacy and extension of that ribbon tweeter in the 20.7s. The highs on the M35 sound terrific but I think most people feel the Magnepan ribbon tweeter is in a class by itself.
Now after 4 weeks and 300+ hours I think any further changes in the M35s will be minor. From 200 to 300 hours I did hear improvements in dynamics, tonal color, texture and particularly the soundstage and sense of air. The only place I feel the 20.7s may be better than the M35s would be the very top end. Partly that is due to the excellent ribbon tweeter on the 20.7s, but the Final Audio distributor claims that because of the dip down to 2 ohms of impedance at 14 kHz optimizing the treble on the M35s is sensitive to what amp you used. I will say the M35s are very revealing of any changes in the upstream equipment. At least some of my concerns about dynamics were due to the age of the tubes in my Audio Research Ref 5SE preamp. Putting the last 200+ hours on them brought them towards their end of life and replacing them did restore that dynamics, slam and attack that I felt had been missing. So that is resolved and I'm not sure what the contribution was between burn-in and new tubes but the M35s sound very lively now.
To make a long story short, the M35s showed the most dramatic change and improvement with burn-in that I have ever experienced with a component or cable.
Straight out of the box the speakers were very ordinary sounding and quite disappointing. Soundstage was small, congested and shallow, tone was thin and lacked color and the dynamics and highs were poor. About the only encouraging thing when they were new was a promising bottom end. I started playing them 12-16 hours a day at a variety of listening levels. They began improving quickly and my notes say that the tone started improving after 16 hours but the soundstage was still lacking. However, even after a couple of days of playing the M35s had started showing promise.
By 50 hours I noted that the speakers had continued to improve with better tonal color and density and I was finally getting a soundstage with the kind of width I had with the 20.7s but height was still not as good and they still sounded fairly flat. Bass was strong and seemed to already be a nice improvement over the 20.7s. They still lacked mid-range richness and texture and the highs didn't sparkle and they lacked the sense of air the 20.7s brought.
At 85 hours the bass was clearly better than the 20.7s, treble and highs were still worse but improving. Overall the tone was good but lacked a little of that lush magic I was getting with the 20.7s which seemed to be due to worse decay and a feeling of tightness in the music. The Teonex membrane that is used in the M35s is very lightweight but quite stiff and it simply takes a long time to start to loosen up and sound right. That also meant the dynamics, attack and transients were still not at the levels I enjoyed with the 20.7s. So at 85 hours the M35s lacked some excitement, but overall the M35s started to be competitive with the 20.7s. The purity and transparency of the electrostatic panel was becoming more evident and musical details were very well placed and defined. The soundstage still lacked some of that height the 20.7s are famous for but otherwise it was competitive and moving in the right direction.
100+ hours seemed to be a tipping point with the speakers finally sounding good and I stopped worrying about whether I was going to have to take advantage of the 30 day return policy. The rate of change was slowing but the speakers continued to show good improvement. After 8 days of playing I was starting to play tracks that sounded definitively better on the M35s than they had on the 20.7s. The only area the M35s seemed clearly worse was in the extreme highs which lacked some of the sparkle that fantastic ribbon tweeter in the 20.7s has. At this point I began optimizing the position of the M35s by tweaking the toe in a little each day which helped improve the soundstage further.
At 200 hours I wrote a friend that "The M35s sound good. I would say in most respects they are better than the 20.7s, and in particular the bass is quite a bit better, and I think the overall tonality is probably better. Weaknesses continue to be dynamics, slam, attack and transients, but I'm not sure that they are any worse than the 20.7s in those regards. Very top end treble is probably not as good." By 200 hours the soundstage had actually begun to exceed the size of the 20.7s and was showing a degree of depth I had not heard in my room. The clarity and transparency of the speakers was becoming very evident and with more play time things like female vocals, cellos, guitar plucks and the sound of a drum skin were all excellent. At 200 hours it was clear to me that the M35s were better than the 20.7s in all the ways that were important to me with the exception of the delicacy and extension of that ribbon tweeter in the 20.7s. The highs on the M35 sound terrific but I think most people feel the Magnepan ribbon tweeter is in a class by itself.
Now after 4 weeks and 300+ hours I think any further changes in the M35s will be minor. From 200 to 300 hours I did hear improvements in dynamics, tonal color, texture and particularly the soundstage and sense of air. The only place I feel the 20.7s may be better than the M35s would be the very top end. Partly that is due to the excellent ribbon tweeter on the 20.7s, but the Final Audio distributor claims that because of the dip down to 2 ohms of impedance at 14 kHz optimizing the treble on the M35s is sensitive to what amp you used. I will say the M35s are very revealing of any changes in the upstream equipment. At least some of my concerns about dynamics were due to the age of the tubes in my Audio Research Ref 5SE preamp. Putting the last 200+ hours on them brought them towards their end of life and replacing them did restore that dynamics, slam and attack that I felt had been missing. So that is resolved and I'm not sure what the contribution was between burn-in and new tubes but the M35s sound very lively now.
To make a long story short, the M35s showed the most dramatic change and improvement with burn-in that I have ever experienced with a component or cable.
Will you put your 20.7 back into your system after 4 weeks of being used to M35's signature to do a comparo then? If those are still around of course. Also, could you please list of amplifiers tried?
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Yes, but the 20.7s had to be put on dollies to move them around so I won't be able to position them precisely where they were when I felt they were optimized. So far I have used the Halcro DM-88s, PS Audio BHK 300s, and Krell FBP 300 amplifiers. All sound quite different and I am having trouble forming a clear preference.
None of these amps should have problems with the 2 Ohm loads, but yes , you are right they all will sound different. From my experience the Krell will provide the "meatiest", sound that would suit those Finals the best, among your amps. Halcro will be sort of "leaner", however its all system dependent as we all know. I ve used the Symphonic Line monoblocks from Germany with my Eminent Techs and Acoustats in the past, and have found them to provide the most "fleshed out" sound among the solid state amps, and better than most tubes as well.
The Krell does have a very meaty sound and on certain tracks like https://open.qobuz.com/track/102235928 it is much better but in general it has a very colored sound and is the least nuanced of the three amps. The PS Audio is the best all around being fairly neutral but still having a ton of presence, dynamics and a good mid-range but it is not as good as the Halcros when it comes to sound stage or micro details. The Halcro is a bit flat sounding compared to the other two amps but what an incredible soundstage and it has fantastic details and a kind of low level texture and timbre that is very seductive. Each time I switch to the BHK 300s I find myself missing the DM-88s, and the kind of music I listen to most (this was fantastic tonight with the DM-88s https://open.qobuz.com/album/xmujkrhzs5hhb) is perhaps better suited to maximizing soundstage over presence. The Krell is very fun but it really doesn't seem to be most accurate of the amps. Like I said, I am having trouble settling on just one amp. I may have to try some other amps to find a perfect fit.
I am very pleased that Paul has detailed his M35 journey. He is much more organized and articulate than I. Paul's experience
has mirrored mine. The M35 is creating beautiful music in my room powered by Threshold SA12e monoblocks and DH Labs
Q-10 cables. I prefer the M35 top end air provided by the SA12e 160 class A watts into 8 ohms. The Pass Labs 250.8
presents a softer, more recessed top end. Would love to try the M35 with the earlier design Pass Labs .5 or X series amps.
I have committed to the purchase of a CODA 16 amplifier at the recommendation of Final-Audio's Ravi Velnati.
has mirrored mine. The M35 is creating beautiful music in my room powered by Threshold SA12e monoblocks and DH Labs
Q-10 cables. I prefer the M35 top end air provided by the SA12e 160 class A watts into 8 ohms. The Pass Labs 250.8
presents a softer, more recessed top end. Would love to try the M35 with the earlier design Pass Labs .5 or X series amps.
I have committed to the purchase of a CODA 16 amplifier at the recommendation of Final-Audio's Ravi Velnati.
I spent this evening listening to vinyl and pulled out Darkside's "Spiral" that I purchased recently. Dead quiet and slightly different from streaming Qobuz over the Innuos Pulsar into the Holo May KTE DAC. For my tastes this is a fantastic sounding electronic/psych rock album and it really highlighted how the M35 is a leap forward from older electrostatic speaker technology. The M35's have deep, tight, tuneful, coherent bass and offer exceptional transparency and tonal purity with pinpoint imaging and an expansive, layered, huge soundstage. And they are capable of playing LOUD when the music and mood call for it. "Spiral" shows off the strengths of the M35s, which sound very good in my system. But a track like "Wake Up" from Rage Against the Machine is a total banger and also sounds fantastic on the M35s played in the high 80's dBC with peaks going into the 90s which is the limit of what I can stand. The flip side is traditional audiophile tracks from artists like Sara Bareilles have that lush, well defined mid-range with the voice hanging in air quality that great speakers achieve. I imagine a $200K AlsyVox Caravaggio or $750K Clarisys Atrium sound better at 10-30x the cost but the M35 sounds fantastic and seems like a genuine value to me in this crazy world of HiFi.
Thanks for posting about the dynamics, referencing Rage Against the Machine. I'm hoping to have my M35 this month, if the stars align.
My plan is to use them, that's for sure.
I'll be regularly rocking out at a decent volume.
My plan is to use them, that's for sure.
I'll be regularly rocking out at a decent volume.
Congratulations on getting the M35. Just remember the burn in period is real and long. Don't judge them on how they sound right out of the box because I promise you they won't sound that good. But after 100+ hours I think you will be pleased and by 300 hours you will be wondering why more people aren't talking about these speakers. I listen to a very wide range of music and after playing hundreds of different tracks I can tell you I have yet to find a genre of music that they don't sound good with. My 20.7s were very sensitive to volume, on most material it was like a switch turning on when you increased the volume level to a certain point. Below that level the 20.7s didn't sound that engaging and above it was a big difference. The M35s are much more linear. Yes, they improve with higher volumes, but it isn't like the step function I experienced with the 20.7s. And as I noted, my listening limits are pretty much in the high 80s dBC, I just don't like music louder than that, but I haven't heard anything from the M35s that suggest to me that they can't go louder to good effect.
Anyhow, please keep us updated on your experience with the M35s. I'm sure it has been a long wait but I think you will be happy with them. And if you aren't share that experience too.
I can fully agree with Paul1960. Each time I rotate them back into my system I appreciate them more than the last. One very important quality of a speaker is that it is comfortable with all types of music. The M35 sings with whatever music you ask it to deliver.
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