Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!

[awsmone]

Mike, apparently the music that was generally played was soft jazz...but my friend was having none of that. He brought along some pretty good test pieces, along with a Cello piece that plumbs the depths. Apparently the speakers reacted tremendously to all music that he played. So much so, that several members of the audience were in shock at the SQ.

Can you clarify what you mean by a cello piece that plumbs the depths?

The lowest note on a cello is C2 which if tuned to A440 would give a frequency of 65.4hz

though it is the lowest note on that instrument

 

[DaveyF]

Can you clarify what you mean by a cello piece that plumbs the depths?

The lowest note on a cello is C2 which if tuned to A440 would give a frequency of 65.4hz

though it is the lowest note on that instrument

Well I can only tell you what my friend stated, and he stated exactly that. I suspect what he meant was that the bottom reach of the Cello recording that he brought along, was played back with exactitude and bass clarity.
It certainly impressed him so much, that he is now planning on acquiring the Botocellis once funds allow!

 

[awsmone]

Even the lowest note on a double bass is 41 hz unless of the five string variety which can go to 31 hz but is uncommon

Yes I can understand the joys of planar bass
My quad 57 do cello and double bass the best I have heard but they don’t go super low but for acoustic bass it’s unnecessary, though I am not aware the bass guitar really goes lower but is a purer tonal bass note ie less higher harmonics

 

[dr k]

I've seen the Botticelli close up. The build quality on this speaker is the best I've ever seen for a planar speaker including the latest by Magnepan, Martin Logan, Analysis Audio, etc. As far as I can tell, quality approaches Wilson speakers. An they are by far the heaviest full range planar speaker I've ever come across including the original Apogee Full Range and the full range SoundLabs which are much larger. The designer seems to have gone to heroic lengths to control resonance of the speaker, not only with mass and different materials (steel, acrylic, wood) but also with its ball-in-cup speaker feet. Planar speaker manufacturers in general don't pay much attention to resonance control of their speakers.

 

[DaveyF]

I've seen the Botticelli close up. The build quality on this speaker is the best I've ever seen for a planar speaker including the latest by Magnepan, Martin Logan, Analysis Audio, etc. As far as I can tell, quality approaches Wilson speakers. An they are by far the heaviest full range planar speaker I've ever come across including the original Apogee Full Range and the full range SoundLabs which are much larger. The designer seems to have gone to heroic lengths to control resonance of the speaker, not only with mass and different materials (steel, acrylic, wood) but also with its ball-in-cup speaker feet. Planar speaker manufacturers in general don't pay much attention to resonance control of their speakers.

That is what I have heard about these speakers as well. I will say that looking at the construction quality of the new Maggie 30.7, well it leads a lot to be desired, IMO. The frame is something that the manufacture should be ashamed of! If it wasn't for the amazing SQ that these speakers portray, i don't think anybody would have any interest in them at all....certainly from an aesthetics or quality of construction perspective! While $30K is not a lot of money these days in this hobby for speakers ( isn't that insane??) I still think the quality of the construction of the Maggies....is shockingly poor! OTOH, the Botticelli is something like three(3) times the price of the Maggies!!...so a little thought to the construction quality should be a given.

 

[dr k]

That is what I have heard about these speakers as well. I will say that looking at the construction quality of the new Maggie 30.7, well it leads a lot to be desired, IMO. The frame is something that the manufacture should be ashamed of! If it wasn't for the amazing SQ that these speakers portray, i don't think anybody would have any interest in them at all....certainly from an aesthetics or quality of construction perspective! While $30K is not a lot of money these days in this hobby for speakers ( isn't that insane??) I still think the quality of the construction of the Maggies....is shockingly poor! OTOH, the Botticelli is something like three(3) times the price of the Maggies!!...so a little thought to the construction quality should be a given.

Sad to say, it is well known that Maggies have the poorest build quality of all the current planar speaker manufacturers. Imagine the improvement in sound if Magnepan paid more attention to build quality (improved crossover parts, binding posts (steel?), fuse, MDF frame, etc).

I recently auditioned 20.1 at a reputable Maggie dealer in California. I certainly can hear the improvement in sound since my Maggie 3s. More dynamic, better tweeter mid integration, and better bass extension. But it still lacked the ultimate transparency of electrostats and properly set up Apogees.

 

[jeff1225]

Don't you think that the Maggie's would also be $80K if they were made to the same standard? But would they sound any better?

 

[dr k]

Don't you think that the Maggie's would also be $80K if they were made to the same standard? But would they sound any better?

The 30.7s would definately cost more if Maggies were built like the Botticelli, if Magnepan maintanined current pricing structure. The 20.7 would probably cost more too. Magnepan makes great sounding speakers using the cheapest components that will do the job. The cost of building a Maggie is very low compared to what Magnepan charges retail. Maggie is one of the most successful speaker manufacturer in history, and has high overhead to my understanding. For example, I was told many of its employees have been working for Magnepan for decades and have full retirement benefits. So I guess that in part has something to do with their pricing structure. As to its sound, I'm sure a Maggie built like Botticelli would sound better than than stock Maggie, but better than Botticelli? I don't know.

 

[morricab]

A very good friend recently heard the new Alsyvox planar speakers at the RM show. The Botticelli model was apparently not only his 'best of show' speaker, but also the best sounding speaker he has ever heard, period!!! Since this friend has tons of experience in over 40 years in the hobby, what he told me really peaked my interest. Apparently, he feels that the speaker not only delivers what the old Apogee's were known for, but also everything that they couldn't portray....deep bass with tremendous resolution and highs that are SOTA!
Many in the room at RM were shaking their head in disbelief....

So, for anyone considering a new speaker purchase, and with the room ( and the very large budget) to accommodate this design....something to put on your short audition list. BTW, the Botticelli is the middle of the range...the Michelangelo being their flagship...at a price that you dare not ask!

Anyone else have thoughts on this design??

Yes, they are fantastic...possibly the best planar speaker I have ever heard and I have heard/owned a lot of planar speakers. That said I would not rate them yet as the best speaker I have ever heard simply because I think they don't demo with the best possible electronics that could be put on them to get the max sound out. As a result, while I can hear all the qualities that make them potentially great, I have heard other systems that were more natural sounding and simply more realistic. To be fair, those systems were likely much more expensive than even the quite expensive Alsyvox system. I would love to hear them with a great SET or OTL amp because they are high sensitivity and an easy load.

 

[Zero000]

I spent a long time listening to the Maggie 20.7 last Sunday.

It is a world apart in terms of dynamics from an Apogee. It seriously lacks dynamics.

I have owned planars for well over 20 years and I will say that they need maintenance. Buying the Botticelli is a serious risk unless you can cope with returning the speaker to Valencia or flying the man out to yours, unless he includes this in his warranty. However chances are they'll fail outside of this period.

But trust me. They WILL fail sooner or later.

 

[morricab]

Compared to an Apogee or Maggie, the difference here is that the bass driver has magnets on both sides.

That is one hell of a compromise in some respects. You lose half of the bass panel radiating area, I would say, looking at them.

Should be better in the sense that it won't have more pull than push, which the Apogee bass panel has, since the magnets are on both sides, not just one. So that's a plus (in theory).

It looks to be made with better materials than Apogees ever were, but that would not be hard. That's one way to easily improve on Apogee's efforts today. Just make them far more rigid with more expensive materials.

I'd be interested to hear them. I seriously doubt they would be much better than a really well made contemporary Apogee.

A well made planar magnetic can be an astounding thing. When I watch the faces of people listening to mine, and when I just sit there awestruck at what mine can do with some material, it isn't hard to see why people get so impressed with something like this Alsyvox.

But trust me, I know quite a bit about how to make a decent planar magnetic, and I know there are problems that simply cannot be escaped. This speaker will have those issues. It just depends on how prevalent they are to the listener, and how well they have been kept to a minimum by the implementation.

Well, they are the best planars I have heard and I have heard just about every Apogee known to man or beast as well as a large cross section of Maggies and various other planars and/or electrostats. The ones I didn't get to hear properly driven are the Australian Apogee model Synergy, which is also based on Nd magnets and has a 95db or so sensitivity. I heard it with all the wrong amps and source and it was thin and screechy sounding. Also, the Australian Apogee Definitive I have not heard and could be the best planar ever made...but for a huge price.

 

[morricab]

Graz of Australia, who now owns he Apogee brand, still offers the Synergy 95db efficient full ribbon model based on Scintilla, but with flat impedance of 2.5 ohms. Doubt the Alsyvox would have much on Graz model, which isn't cheap, but is still a lot less dinero.

http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/synergy1_5_specs.html

Agreed, but that 2.5 ohm impedance might hinder using some of the best sounding amps and that could tip the balance.

 

[dr k]

Yes, they are fantastic...possibly the best planar speaker I have ever heard and I have heard/owned a lot of planar speakers. That said I would not rate them yet as the best speaker I have ever heard simply because I think they don't demo with the best possible electronics that could be put on them to get the max sound out. As a result, while I can hear all the qualities that make them potentially great, I have heard other systems that were more natural sounding and simply more realistic. To be fair, those systems were likely much more expensive than even the quite expensive Alsyvox system. I would love to hear them with a great SET or OTL amp because they are high sensitivity and an easy load.

Not sure if a great tube amp will sound better than a great solid state amp. It's matter of taste. The Botticelli can be fitted with two super tweeters of different impedances (3.2 vs 2.5 Ohm, I believe). The 3.2 Ohm version is better for low powered SET amps. According to the designer, the 3.2 Ohm tweeter will sound "airier" with a SET amp compared to the 2.5 Ohm tweeter. However, the 3.2 Ohm tweeter is not as mechanically robust. With decent powered amp (100 watts, I suppose), you can't tell different between the two versions according to the designer.

BTW, didn't you own the Apogee Full Range or Grand in the past?

 

[morricab]

Ked, I’m having a modest horn with SET explore (at last) and just now putting together the Pureaudioproject Trio 15 inch open baffles with compression driver horns and a line magnet 805 set with 300b drivers and Microzotl as a pre to drive them. Will look at the new Psvane Acme valves for 805 and 300B upgrades, plus maybe later integrating fostex super tweeters or even the polish autotech iwata horns. Have mods planned for the caps and resistors in the Mundorf crossovers as well. Much fun and plenty of room to play.

Yes, the 20.7s as I have them are sounding organic but not at all cloying as a result of having a richer balance, considerably greater resolve and marvellous tonality. It’s taken a few years of development with a lot of gentle mods and optimising in terms of shielding, components, rigidity, plus resonance control. I’ve heard all the current Maggies, quite a few Apogees (though not Graz versions) and a couple of the Audio Analysis. I’ve also compared with three other 20.7 setups regularly... I am finished improving the 20.7s now and completely happy with the quality of sound and how beautifully they play music.

Which model LM? The 219ia? That is a pretty nice amp for quite little money. I got the AcousticPlan designer to admit to me that there was no way he could possibly build such a nice amp for so low money. He was impressed with it and it drove his Western Electric clone system (awesome thing really and for 40K a helluva deal) with Jensen field coil woofers with beautiful sound (and we never got over 1 watt!).

 

[morricab]

I have not had the pleasure of hearing the Botticelli's, but I have heard the 30.7's. The 30.7's are the first planar speaker that can do deep bass...and therefore the best planar that I have heard. OTOH, according to reports, the Botticelli has even more resolution and extension at both ends of the spectrum than the 30.7! If that is true, then the Botticelli would be one amazing sounding speaker. Agreed, the asking price of the Alsyvox is very off-putting, but the 30.7's are priced at almost a bargain in todays high end world.

You haven't heard an Acoustat Spectra 4400 or 6600 then...with my 4400s I had bass flat to 20hz in my room and it was POWERFUL! Best bass I ever heard...including from my IRS Betas and any other big cone speaker I have heard.

 

[morricab]

Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!

Maybe Cessaro should not be on the heading of this thread. It is already a non contender crappy sounding horn by most .

Tang

Especially with the woofers turned off

 

[morricab]

I spent a long time listening to the Maggie 20.7 last Sunday.

It is a world apart in terms of dynamics from an Apogee. It seriously lacks dynamics.

I have owned planars for well over 20 years and I will say that they need maintenance. Buying the Botticelli is a serious risk unless you can cope with returning the speaker to Valencia or flying the man out to yours, unless he includes this in his warranty. However chances are they'll fail outside of this period.

But trust me. They WILL fail sooner or later.

Funny enough Acoustats don't die. I had a pair that was more than 30 years old and the other pairs were more than 20 years old... all worked like new. There many out there 40 years + old all stock that work great. Maybe the wirewound resistor on some models needs de-oxidizing or replacing but the panels don't die...unlike a lot of other estats.

 

[morricab]

Not sure if a great tube amp will sound better than a great solid state amp. It's matter of taste. The Botticelli can be fitted with two super tweeters of different impedances (3.2 vs 2.5 Ohm, I believe). The 3.2 Ohm version is better for low powered SET amps. According to the designer, the 3.2 Ohm tweeter will sound "airier" with a SET amp compared to the 2.5 Ohm tweeter. However, the 3.2 Ohm tweeter is not as mechanically robust. With decent powered amp (100 watts, I suppose), you can't tell different between the two versions according to the designer.

BTW, didn't you own the Apogee Full Range or Grand in the past?

No, I had only smallish Apogees, the Caliper Signature. However, two friends of mine have Grands, a couple of others have Full-ranges, one had Divas another had Studio Grands and Centaur Majors and another had Duetta Signatures. I have also heard the Synergy (but poorly driven) and owned a bunch of other planar and electrostats.

 

[dr k]

No, I had only smallish Apogees, the Caliper Signature. However, two friends of mine have Grands, a couple of others have Full-ranges, one had Divas another had Studio Grands and Centaur Majors and another had Duetta Signatures. I have also heard the Synergy (but poorly driven) and owned a bunch of other planar and electrostats.

I see. I owned the Stages and Centaur Majors, and auditioned the Full Range, Duettas, and Calipers. I have never heard anything enthusiastic about the Synergy unfortunately. The low impedance even though very efficient and requirement for no more than 1mV of DC offset from the amp just kills it for me. Seems very fragile.

 

[DaveyF]

You haven't heard an Acoustat Spectra 4400 or 6600 then...with my 4400s I had bass flat to 20hz in my room and it was POWERFUL! Best bass I ever heard...including from my IRS Betas and any other big cone speaker I have heard.

Actually I have heard both of those speakers. I used to own the model 3's as well. None of them are IMHO anything special at all; and as to the bass capabilities of the 4400 and 6600's...nothing special either. Personally, I think all Acoustats are a highly flawed speaker. Nothing I would consider for a second today. YMMV.