Nope I heard all kinds of decent tube amps on them, tube amps like the Melos range, the large ARC D250 Servo, Conrad Johnson Premier One and a few others I cannot recall. Also i had a friend who owned the huge Acoustat 8's....which If I'm not mistaken were even bigger than the Spectra 4400's. All highly flawed to my ears...with a certain plastic coloration that we haven't even touched upon yet.
Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!
- Thread starter DaveyF
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Nope I heard all kinds of decent tube amps on them, tube amps like the Melos range, the large ARC D250 Servo, Conrad Johnson Premier One and a few others I cannot recall. Also i had a friend who owned the huge Acoustat 8's....which If I'm not mistaken were even bigger than the Spectra 4400's. All highly flawed to my ears...with a certain plastic coloration that we haven't even touched upon yet.
All electrostats have somewhat of a plastic coloration...its because all the panels are made of....drum roll please...plastic! You can hear a "quack" from conventional drivers made of plastic as well. And you can get a zing from metal ones and in general ceramic ones sound "whitish". Materials colorations are one of the biggest issues with speakers and often the "flavor" of a speaker. I find nearly all ceramic driver based speakers unlistenable because while a plastic coloration is somewhat subtle the problem with ceramic drivers is anything but. One of the most "neutral" materials seems to be carbon fiber but again it is still not silent. Paper also has a character, doped or not, but it is somehow consonant with music, unlike metal and ceramic.
One of the biggest problems I hear with conventional, multi-way speakers is when the speaker is using different materials for each frequency range. For example, a doped paper woofer, a metal, ceramic or plastic midrange and then a metal dome tweeter...all stitched together with a high order crossover. You will hear the coloration contribution from each driver, especially if an instrument bridges two or more of those drivers...just awful and will completely destroy the illusion.
The ear/brain can mask/ignore a constant coloration and once assimilated to you don't really hear it anymore. A speaker with multiple colorations that get excited at different times means they will continually jump out and never become repetitive enough to allow the ear/brain to ignore them. They destroy the sound. You want to talk about coloration of a speaker, THIS, IMO, is the real killer of most cone/dome box speakers. Nevermind the boxes contributions, which are also difficult to ignore because they get excited by only certain frequencies and then jump at you from time to time as a thickening of the sound in the mids unnaturally.
Given the number and degree of colorations in normal cone/dome speakers, I am not at all concerned about a small somewhat plasticky coloration in electrostats. I never said the speakers are coloration free...show me one that is.
Some of the efforts from Wilson and Magico do a nice job of getting the box part to be mostly silent...for Wilson it doesn't seem to sacrifice liveliness but with Magico...they sound relatively dead to me. HOWEVER, it doesn't eliminate the cone cry and tweeter ringing etc. that you get from each driver in the system. That is probably why Wilson finally gave up on Ti Focal tweeter for a "gasp" soft dome. I detest soft dome tweeters though because, while pleasant, sound unrealistic to me. They are in breakup from a few Khz...albeit a "soft" breakup.
IMO, a speaker with uniform distortion will sound less artificial because we can mask something that is uniform...as long as its not too high in level of course. Apogees also sound quite pure even though they also have coloration...but it is uniform as all drivers are the same basic materials.
This is one of the main reasons I left conventional speakers and even after hearing the latest and greatest I can still hear how they are "stitched" together when using disparate materials. Or they use really offensive materials like ceramic drivers, which I have never heard sound right...not Avalon, not Marten design, not Kharma (who dumped them now for carbon fiber derived), not Gauder etc. etc.
The best horns are not completely color free of course but it is minimized to below what I hear from nearly all box speakers AND they have dynamics and liveness that I don't hear from any box speaker.
IMHO speaker distortion is not the same thing as speaker coloration and we should be very specific if debating in a thread also addressing horns versus direct radiation speakers. And I would not mind seeing the measurements that support your positions.
Well, right out of gate your post is not 100%. Distortion is anything that is altering the original signal. Coloration from cabinet or driver resonances are non-linear but correlated with the signal. Therefore they are a form of distortion and not noise, which is uncorrelated with the signal.
Likewise, you were the first in this thread to state direct radiators have lower distortion, so evidence please...
I think the fact that pro systems largely use horns to play very loud with low distortion is already very good circumstantial evidence. As you go down in level the distortion drops accordingly...that’s pretty clear from the physics.
You mention driver problems, cabinet problems and crossover problems with many conventional cone speaker brands. Have you not auditioned Rockport Technologies speakers, or have you auditioned them and found them to have the same problems as these other brands but you forgot to add Rockports to your post, or have you auditioned them and found them not to have the same problems as these other brands?
Ron, if he answers your second question, does that not make the third one redundant?
Ron, I've heard the same lack of complaints about Magico speakers ever since they developed the M Pro with its diamond coated tweeter. No one complains about the tweeter in the S series Mk2 or the new M series.
Yes, but I was just trying to make it easier for him with a clear multiple choice offering.
Playing with semantics and definitions. My point was clear - in normal use speaker distortion and speaker coloration have different meanings.
Morricab has a good point ( can I say that??
) All drivers have their own individual set of problems. The question becomes which speaker manufacturer has dealt the best with what they have available. On Saturday, I listened to the new YG XV-1's with their new hybrid tweeter, made of silk and metal. IMO, these tweeters are an excellent driver. However, here's the main thing, the overall speaker design of the new YG's wasn't flawed as to BIG areas of its reproduction, like the Acoustats! ( or for that matter all horn speakers that I have heard). IOW, one wasn't missing bottom end clarity and punch, top end sparkle and air, precise imaging etc. Sure, these particular speakers require a lot of up front muscle from your amp and a huge room, ( and a very healthy sized wallet!) but if you have these things, you will get a product that can give you a very decent overall sound.
) All drivers have their own individual set of problems. The question becomes which speaker manufacturer has dealt the best with what they have available. On Saturday, I listened to the new YG XV-1's with their new hybrid tweeter, made of silk and metal. IMO, these tweeters are an excellent driver. However, here's the main thing, the overall speaker design of the new YG's wasn't flawed as to BIG areas of its reproduction, like the Acoustats! ( or for that matter all horn speakers that I have heard). IOW, one wasn't missing bottom end clarity and punch, top end sparkle and air, precise imaging etc. Sure, these particular speakers require a lot of up front muscle from your amp and a huge room, ( and a very healthy sized wallet!) but if you have these things, you will get a product that can give you a very decent overall sound.Yes, always good to compare YG XV powered by relentless with Acoustat. I do agree that the 300k Zellaton with 200 plus fm acoustics is better than Martin Logan. And Tang's system must surely be better than devore.
Fwiw, I like YG, and they play more like stats (similar decay, openness and mids, but with more oomph and better quality than stats). So no wonder Chuck went from X2S2 to XLF to YG XV. But then no wonder Tang, who had the YG, was going to get the first four column YG, and also considered Zellaton (which again, has my favorite mids because it sounds like a pure ribbon apogee (at audio arts, not at Munich)) went Cessaro.
Fwiw, I like YG, and they play more like stats (similar decay, openness and mids, but with more oomph and better quality than stats). So no wonder Chuck went from X2S2 to XLF to YG XV. But then no wonder Tang, who had the YG, was going to get the first four column YG, and also considered Zellaton (which again, has my favorite mids because it sounds like a pure ribbon apogee (at audio arts, not at Munich)) went Cessaro.
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There's no speaker called YG XV-1. Perhaps Dave was referring to the YG Sonja XV we just had here.
And for the record, we've had tons of panels/stats fans come to the store, and they'd always pick the YG as their fave, one even saying that if he had to move from his panels/stats, he'd go YG.
Also had clients with AG horns that's considering moving to big YGs as well.
So it's silly to generalize. People like what they like, and they go with whatever's best for them at a given point in time.
And for the record, we've had tons of panels/stats fans come to the store, and they'd always pick the YG as their fave, one even saying that if he had to move from his panels/stats, he'd go YG.
Also had clients with AG horns that's considering moving to big YGs as well.
So it's silly to generalize. People like what they like, and they go with whatever's best for them at a given point in time.
Thank for the correction on the name of the YG's, Alex. However, I was not generalizing. The YG's are IMO a very good representative of a dynamic style of speaker...done right. Having owned Acoustats and other panels, I would still own these speakers IF they had anything like the SQ that one hears from the YG's...even the lower priced current YG models!
Horns are a big FAVE for some on this forum, they aren't generalizing about their merits...but yes, people like what they like at a given point in time--- and certainly seem only too happy to ignore their faults.
Horns are a big FAVE for some on this forum, they aren't generalizing about their merits...but yes, people like what they like at a given point in time--- and certainly seem only too happy to ignore their faults.
I believe we all selectively ignore faults based on our listening preferences. I love dynamics, so I'm willing to ignore the few faults of my current speakers because they deliver on the dynamics. My past Avantgardes had too many faults to account for the great dynamics.
Your love for Lyra cartridges is a similar story. You're willing to deal with the often hard edge of the Lyra sound as long as you get the detail you crave. Its a trade of. There is no perfect component that satisfies all listeners. If there was, we'd all be using it.
I don’t hear or have a hard edge with the Lyra. I know this is the rep that they have, but I am really only now understanding why people think this. It is because they typically hear these cartridges with ss phono preamps or SUT’s. Several members have mentioned to me that with these type of amplification devices, the Lyra will sound as you described. Not so with a tube phono stage and tube ancillary gear.
So, yes in a way you are right, I have dealt with the issue...by using an appropriate tube phono stage and tube ancillary gear.
YOU don't hear the hard edge of the Lyra, the fact is that many people do. Also, I'd like to point out that Lyra doesn't recommend that their products for tube phono preamps only. You've tamed the hard edge of Lyra buy softening up the presentation with tube gear. That's great, but most people would just prefer to use a different cartridge.