There are two pairs of Synergy here in England. I have spoken to both owners in the flesh. Ironically they were both using 600 Watt Rowlands with them.
Tried to book a listen with one of them but it never happened.
Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!
- Thread starter DaveyF
- Start date
There are two pairs of Synergy here in England. I have spoken to both owners in the flesh. Ironically they were both using 600 Watt Rowlands with them.
Tried to book a listen with one of them but it never happened.
Care to elaborate? What, in your view makes them a highly flawed speaker? A lot of seasoned audiophiles and professional musicians (of the classical music sort) heard them in my setup and would definitely not agree with your assessment either about the bass or them being flawed or not special. Jaws dropped, systems copied etc. Ask Christoph, he bought a pair of Spectra 2200s after hearing them at my place and has a wonderful "small" system built around them to this day. IMO, your opinion on them is what is flawed...YMMV.
Sadly, the demo I heard was at a London Heathrow show in 2006, I think. The amps were Swiss Rowen and not able to cope with the load. The source was the DCS 8Pi cd player. The combo was terrible with this screechy sound.
Yes, I remember that show and the Synergy. Everyone who has heard it seems to have lukewarm or negative impression of the speakers. I don't think it's the ultimate expression of the Scintilla.
I have had those Rowan's in my lounge. The exact same ones you heard. It is a very odd amp as power output increases massively into low impedance loads. They sound pretty good.
The story I heard is that the crossovers were wrong for the Synergy at that show. It wasn't an art Graz had mastered. They were redone later. A number of times
Such a shame. Should be a killer speaker done right.
I have had those Rowan's in my lounge. The exact same ones you heard. It is a very odd amp as power output increases massively into low impedance loads. They sound pretty good.
The story I heard is that the crossovers were wrong for the Synergy at that show. It wasn't an art Graz had mastered. They were redone later. A number of times
Such a shame. Should be a killer speaker done right.
Unfortunately, the person who really knew Apogee crossover was George of the defunct Northcreek Audio. He designed the crossovers for the original Apogee company and apparently Graz's Synergy. The last crossover he did was a one off for the Stage, which my friend now owns. It was Georges ultimate crossover for his personal pair of Stages, different than anything he has done for Apogee. He worked with the power response of the speakers in the crossover design. My friend tells me this one off Stages do some incredible things in terms of integration, staging/imaging, and overall balance. George is no longer in audio. Graz's forte is not in crossover design, and I think ultimately his speakers will always be limited because of that. In private, one of the US Apogee rebuilder who uses Graz's ribbons confided in me that none of Graz's speakers sound any better than the original Apogees.
I agree 100 per cent, I had the LM219ia on loan for a month and thought it was really great amp. But even better have ended up with the LM805ia which has 805 valves and for me it’s even more impressive again with a real incisiveness in the bass and more coherence again than the 845 amps.
The amp I bought was also spec upgraded through out beyond the stock with top end Mundorf caps and resistors and is sounding absolutely magic. The microzotl pre is proving an ideal match as it adds a genuinely beguiling natural flow and quicksilver fleet-footedness to the big, bold rich 300b 805 LM.
So happy am I that I’m now looking at rolling with either the Cossor or Psvane Acme 805 and 300B plus NOS 6SN7s for a second setup because this beautiful svelte black beasty (with a hefty big chunk of iron for a transformer) really deserves them. So while I am so loving the Pap horns (these are also playing way beyond their price point) but am now as much in awe of the LM/microzotl combo that’s driving them. It’s playing so far and musically well beyond its price expectation that I’m now thinking of buying another Lm508ia for the Harbeth 40.2s. These last additions, the Pureaudioproject horns and the LM508IA have been a real turning point for me, while I’m still just playing them in and have maybe a bit under 80 hours on them but feel like I’ve taken a punt and like I’ve struck it both super rich and super happy.
While the Alsyvox may be great (and I’d love to hear them properly setup and playing all types of music) I really love it when some designers prove that you don’t always have to spend absolutely like the sky is the limit to approach greatness. Moving some ways towards the Sota without always going overboard on the Totl.
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Ok, I’ll bite...care to consider this since I am elaborating?
Firstly, to my ears the Acoustats couldn’t portray realistic dynamics, secondly I think they were unable to really portray much above 15khz, and lastly their imaging was diffuse along with their bass precision being marginal...
Then we add the fact that they were incredibly difficult to place in a room, needed a ton of room to breath, were demanding on the amp and preferred a lot of current...shall I go on. All of this leads to my statement that they were- and are flawed...imo.
Ok, so now you are going to tell me that I don’t know what I am talking about and you never had any of these issues, come on man!
Mine measured out to 20khz. Response was +- 2db in room from 200-15khz. They don’t need a large room I didn’t need one and neither does Christoph. Don’t need a lot of current either. Got amazing sound with OTL and SET. Only placement requirement was distance from front wall. Imaging was SOTA and I have tons of witnesses to this fact. I don’t know what you heard or who set them up but sounds like made up troll fodder to me.
I am sure it is a great sounding combo. Do you really think it will work with Harbeths?
It is just magic with my 40.2s, I’ve heard the 40.2s with the big Bricasti monos and even my Shindo with the Magtech play them beautifully but also the 50 watts SET LM508ia wasn’t even breaking a sweat and sounded purely magical. The tone and timbre is perfect. I’ve been a big advocate of SS to control the 40.2s but have had a change of heart. This 50 watts SET can make them sing. The room is 5200mm x 7600mm and the LM was driving the room easy. Will probably have both a Lm508ia and Shindo plus Magtech on the 40.2s for different music and just whenever the tube mood hits.
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Posting what you did on the old fashioned flawed Acoustats is IMO...troll fodder!
How you can get a 20hz note cleanly with that panel is interesting...maybe with an added sub, LOL.I noticed that you stated that your speakers go to 15Khz, what you didn't post was how much they drop off after that....LMAO.
Like i posted elsewhere, I don't believe that the 40.2's need a ton of upfront power to sing. Your 50 watt/ch SET is superb, I'm sure.
Hey morricab and DaveyF, your divergent experiences with the same speakers is not uncommon in high end audio. It doesn’t mean one is right and the other is wrong. I’ve heard similar experiences with Apogees, for example. As the great philosopher, Rodney King, once said, “Can we all get along?”
Just to chime in on using low power tube amp with the 40.2; I was sceptical but hooked the Ayon Crossfire amp (30 watts SET).
It performs beautifully with deep and well control bass. We play it quite loudly in our fully treated reference room.
In a normal room it could play at more than adequate volumes.
Well, he has his “feelings “ and I have made measurements. No one who ever heard my setups came away with DaveyF’s impressions, no one. My setup flew in the face of all requirements he claims are necessary. Christoph has his in a tiny room and they sound really great. The friend who bought mine also has great sound in a small room. I tried to buy them back and he said, “no way”.
Hi Ki,
I have line sources, here: DALI MegaLine III, Beveridge Model II and Model III -- ribbon/dynamic hybrid, electrostat, electrostat/dynamic hybrid, respectively. I find image scales with SPL, i.e. volume, whether line or point source transducer. Indeed, I find line source-type loudspeakers scale exceedingly well.
If the sound/image is flat, e.g. two-dimensional, then it would be a problem, indeed; however, if there is a spaciousness to the sound...three-dimensionality...front-to-back imaging -- then not so much, if at all. I often find acoustic sources/instruments to characteristically sound quite "large" in real-life experience. Certainly, this quality, read -- image, of sound can become exaggerated contingent upon SPL setting and respective recording.
Mike, I lived with Acoustats for about eight years.. and I could never get away from their inherent flaws. Tried everything imaginable, including updating the x-overs etc.Therefore what I posted about them is what I feel applies.
Everyone that owned them back in the day had similar experiences, and most were as frustrated as I was with them. It was only once I replaced them with a pair of Hales system 2 signatures did I fully understand how problematic they were.
Even though today the Hales aren’t thought that highly of, I can tell you , they just killed my old Acoustats.
Some people just don’t have the same reference that I do, I get that now.
Everyone that owned them back in the day had similar experiences, and most were as frustrated as I was with them. It was only once I replaced them with a pair of Hales system 2 signatures did I fully understand how problematic they were.
Even though today the Hales aren’t thought that highly of, I can tell you , they just killed my old Acoustats.
Some people just don’t have the same reference that I do, I get that now.
A spectra 4400 panel is huge...you sure you really heard one?? I measured it in room to 20hz nearly flat (maybe 3db down) no sub needed (they were the subs!). No idea how much distortion though...didn-t have an analyzer to measure distortion.Posting what you did on the old fashioned flawed Acoustats is IMO...troll fodder!
I noticed that you stated that your speakers go to 15Khz, what you didn't post was how much they drop off after that....LMAO.
HF response was only down about 1db at 15Khz and about 3db down at 20khz...perfectly respectable extension in-room and a desirable way for it to be as room power response should not be flat like on-axis response.
You probably never tried really good tube amps on them...