Amp Stand for Heavy Amp on Wood Floor?

[Cellcbern]

Hello!

My VTL amplifiers have spiked feet. Presently the spikes are sitting on Herbie wood slider discs.


View attachment 111068


I am moving the amplifiers to Adona amp stands.




When I move the amplifiers to the Adona amp stands should I place the spiked feet directly onto the granite platform of the amp stands, or should I place the spiked feet onto the Herbie discs which would then sit on the granite platform?
View attachment 111070


So should the spiked feet sit directly on the granite platform, or should they be disintermediated by the Herbie discs?

Thank you!

The Herbie's Audio Labs "Gliders" are designed to decouple from the floor while providing the convenience of easily moving whatever they support (e.g.,for cleaning). They should be used between your racks/stands and the floor. The Adona platforms are designed to absorb vibrations from the granite top layer into a dissipating layer below which suggests that you should couple your components to the granite with spikes and a simple metal or ebony (if you want a little tuning) spike cup. It follows that if you used a decoupling spike cup/footer on top of the granite you would not be taking advantage of the absorbing/dissipating layer below the granite.

 

[Ron Resnick]

We dropped the spikes directly onto the granite.





Thanks to everyone for your advice!

 

[Halydean]

Looks great!

 

[Rumpole]

I'm considering the Butcher Block Rigid Rack for an amp, CD player and streamer. Would the iso-band footers be a good choice to decouple vibrations from the floor to the rack? And should I also use a speaker stand with iso-bands to avoid transferring vibration from the speakers to the floor? Apologies if this has already been answered, but I searched the thread and missed seeing a response on the iso-bands.

 

[Cellcbern]

I'm considering the Butcher Block Rigid Rack for an amp, CD player and streamer. Would the iso-band footers be a good choice to decouple vibrations from the floor to the rack? And should I also use a speaker stand with iso-bands to avoid transferring vibration from the speakers to the floor? Apologies if this has already been answered, but I searched the thread and missed seeing a response on the iso-bands.

No experience with the Iso-Bands so don't know how well they work. But looking at their design they are essentially spring based decouplers, and you want your rack and speaker stands decoupled from the floor. Given their reasonable price I'd say they are worth trying.

 

[Salectric]

...I have posted this before somewhere, but these air-shims are tremendously versatile and handy for audio usage. Adjusting shims/footers, moving gear. Very, very helpful. I think the bag I have is rated for 300 lbs. Have had it for five years or so. Highly recommended.

https://www.amazon.com/HTCELLE-Commercial-Professional-Inflatable-Sizes-Small/dp/B088F316V6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?keywords=airbag+shim&qid=1685647454&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExRkVWVEIzTURVMUY3JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzUzNDk2MTBSQ0pHV1lUUDJMVCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzY4OTUwM01YOExHTlFKRVZRNyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX3Bob25lX3NlYXJjaF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

I too recommend these bladders. I recently used them to raise my turntable platform to try different footers between the platform and steel stand underneath the platform. They worked like a charm. I raised each corner one at a time by maybe 3/4" which allowed me to remove one footer and insert another. The whole process of swapping out 4 footers took no more than 5 minutes. All despite 120 lbs of turntable sitting on top of the platform.

 

[Salectric]

We dropped the spikes directly onto the granite.


View attachment 111137


Thanks to everyone for your advice!

Ron, what changes in sound did you notice with the Adona amp stand vs your old setup?

 

[Puma Cat]

I'm considering the Butcher Block Rigid Rack for an amp, CD player and streamer. Would the iso-band footers be a good choice to decouple vibrations from the floor to the rack? And should I also use a speaker stand with iso-bands to avoid transferring vibration from the speakers to the floor? Apologies if this has already been answered, but I searched the thread and missed seeing a response on the iso-bands.

You could use those or Norm Varney's EVPs (Equipment Vibration Protectors). The EVPs provide the best vibration that I've used. I also did some experiments using an app, Vibsensor (which is no longer available, unfortunately) using different footers placed under my Schiit Gungner MB DAC resting an MDF audio rack shelf. The Herbie's Audio Labs Tenderfeet (TF) did a pretty good job, but the EVPs were the best, by far (blue trace). Here vibration is measured as Power, RMS imparted to the component by dropping a small weight on a "slide hammer" (based on a design that Norm uses for vibration testing) onto the rack shelf with Vibsensor resting on top of the component. (DVT are the Diversitech foam and rubber antivibration pads used for appliances, they have far too high a spring rate for use with components of this weight).

placed

 

[Cellcbern]

You could use those or Norm Varney's EVPs (Equipment Vibration Protectors). The EVPs provide the best vibration that I've used. I also did some experiments using an app, Vibsensor (which is no longer available, unfortunately) using different footers placed under my Schiit Gungner MB DAC resting an MDF audio rack shelf. The Herbie's Audio Labs Tenderfeet (TF) did a pretty good job, but the EVPs were the best, by far (blue trace). Here vibration is measured as Power, RMS imparted to the component by dropping a small weight on a "slide hammer" (based on a design that Norm uses for vibration testing) onto the rack shelf with Vibsensor resting on top of the component. (DVT are the Diversitech foam and rubber antivibration pads used for appliances, they have far too high a spring rate for use with components of this weight).

placed

The graph above appears to show results of a comparison test of EVP footers ($400 for a set or four 2" squares; $800 for a set of four 4" squares) against 1- cheap stock factory feet, 2 - washing machine anti-vibration feet ($10-$35 for a set of four), and 3 - Herbie's Audio Lab Tenderfeet ($80 for a set of four of their most expensive model). Out of this group I would hope that the EVP's were the best given the price differential. I have listened to the EVP's under components and they are very good at decoupling. However they are not the best I've heard, and the tripling of their price in the last year or so gives me pause. Are there any comparison tests of EVP's against comparably priced devices (e.g., Isoacoustics Gaia, Townshend Seismic Pods, etc.)? That would provide information for potential users that is actually useful for making purchasing decisions.

 

[PhP]

We dropped the spikes directly onto the granite.


View attachment 111137


Thanks to everyone for your advice!

Hi Ron

I think this set up is not good from my experience as mechanical vibrations university teacher and also professional for years.
First using cones or spike is for 2 things 1) draining vibrations from the electronic and 2) act as a mechanical diode, prevent floor vibration to enter in the electronic. to do 1), the contact area between the electronic chassis and the cone should be quite large. So no nut, no restriction of section.
Then granite is compact stone with high density particules. It's rigid but also very ringing. Stone are rarely good materials for audio, marble and granit for example. Best is porous stone like "pierre de Bourgogne" in France. It sound quite neutral. I made a rack in the past with this stone.
I also see that your cups under the amplifier support seems to be more or less silicone of polymer. These are highly dampened, so they do not permit to vibrations on your amplifier then your amp stand to go to ground. Real mechanical grounding offers much more transparent sound and fast transients.
If your granit platform do not ring a lot, it's because it is put over wood. So vey hard material on not rigid material. It's like acting with accelerator and brake at the same time.
KR
Philippe

Attached: a picture of my old (sold) stone audio rack now I have a Convergence® audio stand.

 

[Cellcbern]

Hi Ron

I think this set up is not good from my experience as mechanical vibrations university teacher and also professional for years.
First using cones or spike is for 2 things 1) draining vibrations from the electronic and 2) act as a mechanical diode, prevent floor vibration to enter in the electronic. to do 1), the contact area between the electronic chassis and the cone should be quite large. So no nut, no restriction of section.
Then granite is compact stone with high density particules. It's rigid but also very ringing. Stone are rarely good materials for audio, marble and granit for example. Best is porous stone like "pierre de Bourgogne" in France. It sound quite neutral. I made a rack in the past with this stone.
I also see that your cups under the amplifier support seems to be more or less silicone of polymer. These are highly dampened, so they do not permit to vibrations on your amplifier then your amp stand to go to ground. Real mechanical grounding offers much more transparent sound and fast transients.
If your granit platform do not ring a lot, it's because it is put over wood. So vey hard material on not rigid material. It's like acting with accelerator and brake at the same time.
KR
Philippe

Attached: a picture of my old (sold) stone audio rack now I have a Convergence® audio stand.

FYI: https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magaz...nceptions_About_Loudspeaker_Spikes_Review.htm

I haven't used an Adona platform but according to the manufacturer the layer underneath the stone absorbs and dissipates the vibrations transmitted to the stone by the spikes.

FYI: https://v2.stereotimes.com/post/adona-corporation-zero-gxt-equipment-rack/

 

[PhP]

that's what I said, a lot of manufacturers use strange design. In that case it's not science it's compensation but I red StereoTimes review, at this price there is little issue to make a real designed Rack+platform. Also MDF is a cheap material made of wood particules, compress and bonded (so huge damping, that's why some average speakers cabinet are made with MDF.
If you put aluminum spike on granit, there is a concentration of vibrations at the sharp end of the spike. So what happens? a quantity of vibration ring the spike and some go back again to the electronic chassis. A wood platform act as a damper under a granit pallet that is absolutely undampened. That's why even if wood calms a bit granit high frequency mode, this is not the best way to drain and have the lowest quantity of vibration energy in the component chassis. A French manufacturer of transport used granit for the chassis in the past, result was moderate and it was a very special granit with a lot of huge Mica particules to have a limited amplitude of the mode. Even wood use in vertical "bois debout" is average because all parts are bonded.

 

[Salectric]

FYI: https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magaz...nceptions_About_Loudspeaker_Spikes_Review.htm

I haven't used an Adona platform but according to the manufacturer the layer underneath the stone absorbs and dissipates the vibrations transmitted to the stone by the spikes.

FYI: https://v2.stereotimes.com/post/adona-corporation-zero-gxt-equipment-rack/

Adona’s description sounds nice and reasonable, but I am not so sure it works in practice. I bought an Adona platform some 15 years ago and I tried it with lots of equipment and with lots of stands and supports. Unfortunately it never sounded good in any of those applications. It always had a lean bass and a glare in the treble. When I complained to Adona about it, Paul suggested turning the platform upside down. That changed the sound for sure; the platform was then dead and dull.

To be fair, I never tried the Adona platform on an Adona rack. Maybe that would have somehow magically transformed it but I doubt it.

 

[Gregm]

that's what I said, a lot of manufacturers use strange design. In that case it's not science it's compensation

Agreed

but I red StereoTimes review, at this price there is little issue to make a real designed Rack+platform. Also MDF is a cheap material made of wood particules, compress and bonded (so huge damping, that's why some average speakers cabinet are made with MDF.
If you put aluminum spike on granit, there is a concentration of vibrations at the sharp end of the spike. So what happens? a quantity of vibration ring the spike and some go back again to the electronic chassis. A wood platform act as a damper under a granit pallet that is absolutely undampened. That's why even if wood calms a bit granit high frequency mode, this is not the best way to drain and have the lowest quantity of vibration energy in the component chassis. A French manufacturer of transport used granit for the chassis in the past, result was moderate and it was a very special granit with a lot of huge Mica particules to have a limited amplitude of the mode. Even wood use in vertical "bois debout" is average because all parts are bonded.

So, based on your research and experience, what guidelines / tips could you suggest? Regards

 

[PhP]

Agreed

So, based on your research and experience, what guidelines / tips could you suggest? Regards

The best platforms are aluminium with bronze like Convergence audio rack. Quite close is aluminium with synthetic plate inside like HRX or other brands that use the same concept, but this loose a bit of air and sparking like live music. This is also well balanced. All metal platforms are the best but they have to be finely tuned. Contact of the platform to the rack is cones but with a bit dampened cup if the structure of the rack is all metal. The very best is what Goldmund does with their top CD/SACD/Blu Ray transport but it's a costly support and cannot accept electronics. This brand improve the concept since 2000 with their famed turntable reference. Also with Convergence I get the same global rigidity, same impedance, but 3 levels and a touch more tuned vibration control. This lead to exceptional neutrality apart from outstanding performances on speed, details, absence of distorsion, dynamics, soundstage. All my customers and visitor praised about the demo system here, but never they said "may be a good part of the result is the audio stand". But it is
Regards

 

[Salectric]

@PhP
I have not heard of the Convergence rack. Do you have a link to a site with more information?

 

[PhP]

@PhP
I have not heard of the Convergence rack. Do you have a link to a site with more information?

Hi
it's normal that you did not know Convergence®. It's an ultimate product made to order and not sold in USA at this time, only Europe at this time. Convergence® needs a lot of CNC tooling, then aluminium is anodized. All parts are tooled to 1/10 of a millimeter.There are also some special features I do knot precise (under the platforms and into each pillar.
All the communication is in French but easy to translate.
Many years of design.
KR
PHP

PHPAUDIO Systems | PHPAUDIO

www.phpaudio.fr

 

[dgale]

My question has to do both with an appropriate amp stand and ventilation clearance for my amp.
I have a Pathos Heritage MKii Class A hybrid weighing in at approx 200 lbs. it currently sits on my oak floor partially underneath my rack. (At 26” depth it sticks out a bit.).

The amp is 9” high. The space in which it sits is 14” high giving 5” top clearance. The rack space open L/R/F/B as you can hopefully see from the attached pic.

My question is this:
What is the minimum top side clearance if I add an amp stand? I’m hesitant to use anything 3” high, which most seem to be at minimum. It doesn’t seem to generate a lot of heat, but I want to err on the side of caution.

Unfortunately there are no alternative placements for the amp.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[PhP]

Hi,
you don't have so much space, and tubes need volume on top for heat dispersion. 2 solutions : 1- just add really effective cone+bases or feet (ball bearing system is not very recommended on tubes gears save if the chassis is very rigid and the electronic suspended inside the chassis). 2 - buy a platform up to 20/30 mm think, tool where you put feet or cone+base and you could have just 5 to 10mm more than only feet or cones+bases.
KR
Philippe

 

[dgale]

Thanks for confirming my concern. Pathos suggest the same - replace OEMs with aftermarket footers. I’m having difficulty finding footers with a base that is not “sticky” or “rubbery” to the floor so the amp can slide relatively easily for access. unlike Isoacoustics for example which I use throughout the rest of my system and which adhere to the floor.