Amp Stand for Heavy Amp on Wood Floor?

[Ron Resnick]

No. If damped perfectly it will perform the best. Many stands I've seen are really poorly damped. I know of one equipment stand (not sure if its still made) that actually added resonance- the thing rang like a bell.

If you're going to slap stuff together using by gosh and by golly techniques, expect to spend some time trying to sort out what's going on. Some simple measurements could save you a lot of time:


Yes- hard to discuss because people don't like to hear that they are wasting their time- and so they shoot the messenger.

You could measure a frequency sweep emitted by the speakers in the room in which the damping is used. 'Before' and 'After''... A sweep generator and a microphone, plus a bit of software would get you down the road on that. You could easily show were the damping was working- and where it was not. These days that's pretty easy stuff you can do on a phone or tablet.

We've been working with damping for decades. We used it in our turntable, beneath the turntable, using a platform and a custom built stand for it, in our preamps, beneath our preamps and beneath our amps as well as on individual tubes.

What we found is that if the damping is really working, for example inside a preamp, then adding a good damping platform simply makes it all work better. I've yet to see a situation where properly designed and applied damping didn't make an audible and measurable improvement.

So when I hear about stuff being 'over damped' it suggests to me that damping principles aren't being applied. At the very least a person could learn from how Empire killed resonance in their platters 50 years ago by using two parts each with different resonant frequencies mated together so the two rob energy from each other. Or figure out the difference between extensional damping compounds as opposed to constrained damping layers. By gosh and by golly doesn't cut it.

Very interesting, Ralph. Thank you.

If I am understanding you correctly you disagree with this alternative view:

1) Everything in vinyl playback involves resonance: the platter, the plinth, the cartridge, whether the speakers are made of wood or aluminum, the resonant or non-resonant nature of component shelves and stands, etc.

2) Damping everything as much as possible can drain the life and energy out of the music.

3) The goal is not to damp things as much as possible; rather the goal is to manage resonance judicially and carefully to achieve the most natural and alive resulting sound.

 

[Atmasphere]

Very interesting, Ralph. Thank you.

If I am understanding you correctly you disagree with this alternative view:

1) Everything in vinyl playback involves resonance: the platter, the plinth, the cartridge, whether the speakers are made of wood or aluminum, the resonant or non-resonant nature of component shelves and stands, etc.

2) Damping everything as much as possible can drain the life and energy out of the music.

3) The goal is not to damp things as much as possible; rather the goal is to manage resonance judicially and carefully to achieve the most natural and alive resulting sound.

I have a platter pad that damps both the resonance in the LP and some of that in the platter.
To manage the platter its also damped.
The arm tube of my Triplanar is damped to prevent it 'talking back' to the cartridge.
The plinth of the turntable is both rigid and damped, using several different systems. Its base is also damped.
The turntable sits on an anti-vibration platform that employs a special grade of marble, a special grade of 1" steel and a constrained damping layer of submarine hull damping compound (made by EAR). It sits on a set of squishy pucks to give a bit of isolation from the custom built Sound Anchors stand, which is sand filled. The platform was branded 'Ultra Resolution Technologies'. Warren Gehl of ARC designed it. He designed the platter pad too.
The stand in turn rests upon 3 Aurios Pro bearings which relieve side to side motion, making the system immune to footfalls or someone jumping up and down on the hardwood floors upon which it rests.

My speakers are internally damped and braced. They are made of wood, but the walls are a good 3" thick. They rest upon custom points made for them.

By doing all this the system became unassailable at any volume level.

So yes, IMO that 'alternative view' is hogwash. If you tune your system to keep resonance, you're adding distortion. To my understanding, getting rid of distortion is how you get closer to the musical experience, the goal of high end audio.

Distortion isn't going away anytime soon- its a fact of life. We know that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are innocuous to the human ear. That's really the only form of distortion that might be acceptable. Anything else (higher ordered harmonics, IMD and so on) are not, since the ear is very sensitive to them. I really don't see how you could 'manage resonance' so that it only manifests as a 2nd or 3rd!

Sounds to me as if the equipment used by the source of the 'alternative view' had a distortion problem and so the user was compensating trying to tune the system around it. That's a form of using synergy to compose a system. I can tell you from experience as a designer of 50 years, trying to execute a synergy Does. Not. Work.

When you try to do that, for example pairing a bright amplifier with a dull speaker, you introduce distortion. Most people don't realize brightness is often due to distortion, not a frequency response error (I've written a lot about this in the past...). Its much better to find an amp that isn't bright and pair it with a speaker that isn't dull! You can get a lot more transparency that way. Transparency arises from less distortion...

Similarly, using damping to go after a certain frequency and leaving other frequencies unaffected or exacerbated isn't a good use of time or money.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Ralph!

 

[Puma Cat]

Any opinions as two whether 1-1/4” IKEA bamboo boards or 1-1/8 granite plinths would serve as a better amp base? One or two. If two, Herbie’s Giant Dots between them. TIA

With respect to very dense solid materials ringing, watch this video by Norm Varney of A/V Roomservice showing how different materials can ring or vibrate:

Norm is one the leading acoustical engineers in the country with respect designing and building superb audio rooms and making acoustic damping materials.

If you don't want to watch the entire video, watch at about 8:30 into the video where Norm shows his music box mechanism, and then at about 12:30 min in where he puts the music box mech onto a concrete-cabinet loudspeaker. You can hear very clearly just how loudly dense materials can ring.

Also, note in the video just quiet his EVPs are...they are the real deal.

 

[christoph]

I love ice hockey pucks
Very much underrated !

' do use around 30 of them .

The regular hard pro ones or the soft kids ones?

 

[shakti]

The regular hard pro ones or the soft kids ones?

The pro ones

 

[dgale]

DIY amp stand. Not certain about the look. But I’ll see if it makes a difference.
Herbie’s Giant Fat Sliders
2 IKEA APTILIG bamboo boards with Herbie’s Fat Dot between them.
OREA Bordeaux beneath amp.
One APTILIG would look cleaner. Not if that would be less effective though.

 

[Puma Cat]

DIY amp stand. Not certain about the look. But I’ll see if it makes a difference.
Herbie’s Giant Fat Sliders
2 IKEA APTILIG bamboo boards with Herbie’s Fat Dot between them.
OREA Bordeaux beneath amp.
One APTILIG would look cleaner. Not if that would be less effective though.

Yeah, i've found the Herbie's Fat Dots make for an excellent footer for a board resting on the floor or rack shelf. They provide excellent mechanical grounding between the board and the platform underneath, and also damp vibration. They also don't "move" (slide or wiggle) once under a platform. I use the square Fat Dots and put them under each corner of an Aptitlig cutting board. They're shown here under the dual Aptitligs I use for the TT. Between the two boards, there are four HRS Nimbus couplers, one at each corner.

 

[dgale]

Yeah, i've found the Herbie's Fat Dots make for an excellent footer for a board resting on the floor or rack shelf. They provide excellent mechanical grounding between the board and the platform underneath, and also damp vibration. They also don't "move" (slide or wiggle) once under a platform. I use the square Fat Dots and put them under each corner of an Aptitlig cutting board. They're shown here under the dual Aptitligs I use for the TT. Between the two boards, there are four HRS Nimbus couplers, one at each corner.

Very similar to mine. Round Giant Fat Dots between APTILGs and Giant Fat Sliders on the bottom with OREA Bordeaux beneath the amp.

As to any change in sound I’m sure this is confirmation bias, but I’m hearing much clearer and tighter bass - somehow sounding more “elevated” in the sound stage, and a “smoother” more relaxed sound overall. I’m skeptical that a couple of IKEA bamboo boards and some Herbie’s have that effect, but it might be OREAS.

it does indicate to me that vibration control for a tube/hybrid amp does work. I look forward to replacing my DIY with a proper HRS stand at some point.

 

[hongkongfoufou]

Hi Ron,

HARMONIX RF-999Z. The best I have, the best I tested for 30 years. I still use RF-999M but they are not available anymore.
They blow away all precedent HARMONIX bases.
The picture of the cones under the SiegFried show quite ordinary spikes. Cones are complex parts with critic performance depending of the shape, materials and damping. Real cones could be in development for 1 year, until the goal for draining without adding a resonance that can harden the sound more or less.
HARMONIX REI 168 has more than 3 materials, Goldmund cone 2 + silicone damping (unavailable now), Walker 1 material + lead damping.

Picture : REI-168+RF-999-M under my Front End power unit.

KR

Philippe

Apparently, some are not agree with you.

Harmonix spike bases …

Harmonix thingies don’t get much attention in this forum, it seems. I use a pair of TAD micro evolution 1 speakers, augmented by a vintage Velodyne dd12 sub (does the job). Biwiring with vintage NBS monitor 1 speaker cable. Sat on their Orinal spikes and bases. Impressive dynamics, clarity...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[PhP]

Apparently, some are not agree with you.

Harmonix spike bases …

Harmonix thingies don’t get much attention in this forum, it seems. I use a pair of TAD micro evolution 1 speakers, augmented by a vintage Velodyne dd12 sub (does the job). Biwiring with vintage NBS monitor 1 speaker cable. Sat on their Orinal spikes and bases. Impressive dynamics, clarity...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Yes, I reply to some as I agree that old models from HARMONIX were too dampened, and still some now. But new models especially with the right cones are the best I tested (shared tests with audiophiles, reviewers at PHPAUDIO). Many audiophiles use HARMONIX bases with bad cones or spikes, this cannot work.
Same about platforms, some people think that a good platform is in wood because they do not ring. Why some manufacturers like Goldmund made Apologue with steel frame support? the frames rung if you knock it with the finger but not the speakers boxes, because they are loaded. In audio, there are so many configurations, so many systems compositions, so many rooms acoustic response that a lot of people think that their solution is the only one that work. That is not real world.

 

[engadin]

Decent spikes with the Harmonix bases are essential.
I have added a few comments to my thread mentioned above.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Since February I have been using underneath the VTL Seigfried IIs my DIY platforms with big Sorbothane hemispheres on the bottom of the wood platform.

I think literally everyone on this thread advised against using Sorbothane. While the current set-up with Sorbothane amp stands sounds great to me, "50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong," so I have acquiesced to peer pressure and purchased and received Adona Zero GXT1N amp stands.

The GXT1Ns seem solid and well-made; they are not crazy expensive; and Paul Lemanski was easy to work with. Paul kindly made the wood layer out of walnut, rather than out of the standard cherry, to match all of the walnut in my listening room.

The amps sit on granite/wood platforms which, ironically, sit on rubber hemispheres (Sorbothane?) which are screwed into the underlying metal X-frame.

 

[hongkongfoufou]

Decent spikes with the Harmonix bases are essential.
I have added a few comments to my thread mentioned above.

Hi Engadin and PHP,

If the problem is the association between the different Harmonix products, we have a serious problem to associate, for example, amplifier with Harmonix products? With my amplifier, I use a mix of Nordost Kone. I don't if it is better than Harmonix or Stillpoint, but I have a great differences with or without. If you have a floor with wood, perhaps it is not good to have Harmonix or Nordost, perhaps it is better to have Stillpoint...If your floor is hard like the granit, perhaps Nordost Kone are better...
We have many problems to find the good association between cd player, preamplifier, amplifier and analog cable, digital cable and power cable....and if ours products are on solid glasses...or wood or granit...

There are too many combination....

 

[PhP]

If you have a big, heavy amplifier with a wood floor underneath what do you use for an amp stand?

I know Adona makes the Zero GX1 Reference, and Symposium Acoustics makes a flat, multi-layered platform. These seem reasonably priced.

Of course CMS and HRS make their very expensive amp stands.

I know MikeL places his big darTZeels on Taiko Tana/Herzan platforms.

Do any of you keep your amp stands on casters or rubber wheels?

Unlike many, I think Sorbothane is very useful in such an application. Does anyone make an amp stand the heart of which is a thick and broad layer of Sorbothane between two plates of some kind?

What amp stand do you use?

Hello Ron
if you have a wood floor on concrete floor house structure, the best for me is a draining system using a metal platform made of 2 different materials to have no ringing and very high impedance. Then the platform sit on cones and bases (cups).
Rubber and sorbothan are better for sport shoes than for audio. These materials dampened too much and give a dead sound. This is true with all kind of amplifiers, especially if they are heavy and rigid.
On tubes amplifiers, normally the manufacturer had put some engineering to protect the cards and tubes from microphonic vibes.
HRS are very good. I do not try Tana platforms yet, but in one of my customers system, I found the sound very good but not jaw dropping.
The cheapest platform I found interesting 15 years ago was FIM platform with their ball bearing system with optional tungsten balls. They were much better than most today ultra expensive ball bearing system.
At this moment I use no platform, but will have Convergence® platform very similar to the upper platform of this audio stand.
If your wooden floor is not over concrete, floor can wave and isolation systems are better than draining systems.

 

[Salectric]

@Ron Resnick
I will be curious to hear your reactions to the Adona stands. They appear to be well made and well thought out.

 

[Ron Resnick]

@Ron Resnick
I will be curious to hear your reactions to the Adona stands. They appear to be well made and well thought out.

I will be curious to see if I hear a difference.

 

[Kodak805]

I have a solid cement floor with porcelain tile on top. Would that have different isolation properties than wood? I currently use the Townshend pods under all of my components. However, I am buying new amps which weigh 176lbs a piece. My plan was to place these amps on the floor because they will not fit in my current custom component stand.
I never thought of the hockey puck idea. I wonder if they just use one in each corner under the feet or place them under the whole bottom of the amp? I also heard Granite was a good conductor of isolation. I wonder if that would work with rubber underneath it.
I have no knowledge of the principles behind isolation but I am looking for solutions to my setup by placing amps on a very hard surface.

I also have a porcelain tile floor over concrete. My mono amps have large Stillpoints footers. I do not feel the need to try alternatives. This arrangement appears vibration free in practice.

 

[Gregadd]

If you take the massive Liberty Bell and strike it will ring in a very predictable fashion. It will not rattle. Decoupling changes the method of transmission but the device will still ring and transmit vibration through the air. it appears you need some sort of damping to stop the object from ringing. we see many use a sandwich to stop the ringing. You can insert a device in the transmission path that absorbs or converts the vibrations to heat.
All that is intuitive and could be wrong. Thank God for experts and science.

 

[PhP]

If you take the massive Liberty Bell and strike it will ring in a very predictable fashion. It will not rattle. Decoupling changes the method of transmission but the device will still ring and transmit vibration through the air. it appears you need some sort of damping to stop the object from ringing. we see many use a sandwich to stop the ringing. You can insert a device in the transmission path that absorbs or converts the vibrations to heat.
All that is intuitive and could be wrong. Thank God for experts and science.

"it appears you need some sort of damping to stop the object from ringing". Yes, then you get an aperiodic and decreasing energy. Damping is mostly understood as a the use of damping material. To preserve dynamics of a gear, self damping by 2 materials is fine especially if they have little internal damping properties. 1 damp the other due to their different young module. That's why I use it and also the audio stand is so rigid that you cannot mesure any vibration a micro level. Also the weight of 125 kg help for sure.