I use the Solidsteel HY-A | High-End Power Amp Stands for my T+A M10 monos (52kg). Well made with Full Stainless Steel feets.
Amp Stand for Heavy Amp on Wood Floor?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Both Sorbothane and Herbie's Audio Lab silicone based damping material have worked very well for me when used between boards that don't pass resonance (Corian, Acrylic) to create relatively inexpensive, sonically neutral isolation platforms. Note that I have never found Sorbothane to work well when used directly on a component - it always muffles/muddies the sound. In the photo below two 1/2" thick Corian boards with Herbie's Audio Lab damping discs between them provide very effective and relatively inexpensive isolation from the floor. The Marigo Mystery Feet between the amp and platform do a superb job of "draining" airborne and internally generated resonances. In the 2nd photo a DIY Corian/Sorbothane isolation platform for the entry level turntable in my 2nd system eliminated footfall issues that three different commercial platforms I tried failed to isolate it from.Hi Ron,
Just picking up on that last paragraph, I completely agree with you that Sorbothane is a very good material, but I would quality that by also adding, only when used in combination with other materials in order to tune its very high vibration transmission impedance. Putting Sorbothane between a component and a support structure essentially blocks the transmission of vibration in both directions, without doing anything to help drain then convert the component’s innate vibration coming from things like rectifiers and transformers. However when Sorbothane is combined with other materials and bonding strategies, it becomes a super useful viscoelastic polymer layer with high damping and very low frequency resonance capabilities. When used in a structured, engineered way, sorbothane is a remarkable material with both solid and liquid characteristics, which can be applied to create highly beneficial characteristics of the final stand.
I found the attached a useful read to put Sorbothane in some perspective.
I just through of a good way to express my agreement…..I agree that Sorbothane is a very good material when used correctly.
Just adding Sorbothane to a given combination of components guarantees change to the sound but not necessarily improvement. But Sorbothane used in the right form and with the correct materials definitely brings changes that are improvements.
Resonance Frequency and Sorbothane®
The resonance frequency determines how Sorbothane® material both stores and transfers energy between two different forms of storage mode.www.sorbothane.com
Attachments
Hi bazelio,
I’ll tell you what I know but it sounds like you’ve had more experience than me, although I have enjoyed some success. The two main points are impedance matching and function. Sorbothane is a good place for vibrations to go and die as a small amount of heat, but you’ve got to get them into the sorbothane in the first place and as we know, vibrations pass best between materials of similar stiffness, compliance and hardness (if I remember well), so sorbothane requires some intermediary layers in order to match the rubber feet or direct component casing to the very soft and compliant polymer. That pathway needs to work very efficiently in order to transport and convert as much vibration as possible. Get the pathway working well and the sorbothane makes a great vibration sink, especially because at the other side of the sorbothane is a high impedance mismatch to stop vibration from the floor from even getting into the sorbothane. Effectively the sorbothane absorbs from one side and isolates from the other, so its the vibration impedance that’s manipulated to create isolation in 1 direction and absorbtion and conversion in the other.
Steel spikes couple - they don't decouple, which means they provide a pathway for floorborn vibrations to be "reflected" back into the components unless the platform they are attached to is designed to absorb/dissipate vibrations (as I recall Solidsteel uses mdf platforms which provide some but not extensive resonance dissipation). With an amp stand of this design I would add decoupling spike cups in place of the steel ones, and resonance draining/tuning feet between platform and amp.I use the Solidsteel HY-A | High-End Power Amp Stands for my T+A M10 monos (52kg). Well made with Full Stainless Steel feets.
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Nevertheless, in my experience Sorbothane placed directly under a component chassis softens transients, dulls attack, and reduces dynamics. I have heard Sorbothane work well and not harm the sound when incorporated in a footer or platform, but for use directly on a component (an entry level, low budget application only from my perspective) I prefer the Herbie's Audio Lab material which is not as weight sensitive as Sorbothane.
Hi Cellcbern,
Not sure why you say “Nevertheless” as I agree with you that Sorbothane directly under a component is not a good move for exactly the reasons you give. I also agree that Sorbothane used in properly engineered platforms and footers works a treat. In fact a platform or footer function is exactly what I described, multilayer devices with engineered isolation, energy conversion and impedances, so it looks like we are in perfect agreement. I have no experience with Herbie’s material and only a little experience with sorbothane directly under components. This is why I said that Sorbothane is good when used correctly.
Spikes concentrate the weight of the unit on a tiny area (the tips) and create extreme pressure there. The idea behind this is that the mass of the ground is "added" to the mass of the device by the coupling and therefore it can vibrate less. For this to happen, the spikes must be directly on the ground.
However, the spikes stand on solid stainless steel discs. The low vibrations are diverted into these discs. With loudspeakers, the vibration energy would of course be greater, but we are talking about amps here. Conversely, vibrations from the floor cannot pass through into the unit. At least that is my understanding.
The M10 amps have additional vibration dampers in the feet.
You are giving me the (dated) textbook explanation of the benefits of coupling to a high mass (e.g., concrete) floor. However even concrete vibrates, and stores and releases energy. The debate over coupling vs. decoupling has long since been resolved in favor of decoupling. The spikes and steel cups provide a two-way path for vibrations which can pass into the amps unless the design of the platforms and amp feet prevent it. This is true regardless of how much mass they are coupled to. That doesn't mean that the combination of the mdf platforms and the amplifiers' feet don't do an adequate job of reducing vibration. However if like me you seek to perfect your audio system then high end spike bases (all of which decouple in my experience), and high end resonance "draining"/tuning feet under the amps (amplifiers, even expensive ones typically come with less than state of the art footers) would be an audible upgrade.
I notice by the way at the Solidsteel website that the top of the line racks now feature a "double shelf" - a 2nd shelf that they say is "decoupled" from the one below. However if they are using inverted metal cones to support the 2nd shelf then they are still coupling, although the additional mdf shelf will absorb more resonance.
FYI:
Ten Misconceptions about Loudspeaker Spikes - Positive Feedback
Ten Misconceptions about Loudspeaker Spikes
positive-feedback.com
Obviously amps don't vibrate as much as speakers do but when it comes to spikes and isolation the science is the same.
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I have a solid cement floor with porcelain tile on top. Would that have different isolation properties than wood? I currently use the Townshend pods under all of my components. However, I am buying new amps which weigh 176lbs a piece. My plan was to place these amps on the floor because they will not fit in my current custom component stand.
I never thought of the hockey puck idea. I wonder if they just use one in each corner under the feet or place them under the whole bottom of the amp? I also heard Granite was a good conductor of isolation. I wonder if that would work with rubber underneath it.
I have no knowledge of the principles behind isolation but I am looking for solutions to my setup by placing amps on a very hard surface.
I never thought of the hockey puck idea. I wonder if they just use one in each corner under the feet or place them under the whole bottom of the amp? I also heard Granite was a good conductor of isolation. I wonder if that would work with rubber underneath it.
I have no knowledge of the principles behind isolation but I am looking for solutions to my setup by placing amps on a very hard surface.
Can anyone advise as to the composition of the material in contact with the floor , are these capable of gliding as per the Herbies.
Ta Muchly.
@Willgolf perhaps if you refine your objectives, folks can more easily provide ideas. For example, I do not understand the term: "conductor of isolation."
Isolation would separate your new amps from the floor structures beneath, and whatever might be happening there (vibrations from the room, trucks outside, seismic activity, dancing).
I would consider granite to be a conductor of energy (both directions) if used as platforms. It would couple to the floor, not isolate it (how much depending upon how the slabs were installed--on isolation feet, with constrained layer sandwiched in, etc).
Isolation would separate your new amps from the floor structures beneath, and whatever might be happening there (vibrations from the room, trucks outside, seismic activity, dancing).
I would consider granite to be a conductor of energy (both directions) if used as platforms. It would couple to the floor, not isolate it (how much depending upon how the slabs were installed--on isolation feet, with constrained layer sandwiched in, etc).
If you are putting isolation feet and/or platform between amp and floor (i.e., decoupling the two) it shouldn't matter what the floor is made of. A Corian, Acrylic, or laminated bamboo(e.g., Ikea) cutting board with a Herbie's Audio Lab Giant Fat Glider at each corner and perhaps one in the center too would make a relatively inexpensive isolation platform. You can affix the gliders to the bottom of the board with silicone glue. There are also inexpensive isolation platforms available however many of these come with spikes which require a decoupling spike cup like the Herbie's Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider. FYI:
https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collect...pling-and-isolation/products/giant-fat-glider
Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider
Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders for use between spikes and floor: absorbs a substantial amount of cabinet vibration, allowing speaker baffles and the cabinet itself to remain more motionless in place, and eliminates any reverberation from the floor affecting the speakers.
herbiesaudiolab.com
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If one places Simms NAVCOM type pucks, or simple Sorbothane discs, between (underneath) the feet of the amplifier and the platform of the amp stand, then will that absorb the vibrations rather than reflect them back up into the amplifier?
So . . . from the amp down it would be foot of amp on Sorbothane disc on platform on spike on saucer on wood floor over concrete slab.
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Between the chassis and the amp stand works better than under the stock feet both in terms of height and because you can't be sure the stock feet provide a direct path for resonance. Sorbothane by itself does not work great as a footer. It works better between two boards. You want an amp stand decoupled from the floor, and a footer between amp and stand that absorbs/dissipates/tunes the amp's internally generated resonances.
I was using a VTL S-400 (stereo Version of VTL Siegfried) on my wooden floor, as I played around with different platforms and feets.
As the complete room is energized by the music, resonances and mechanical vibrations are floating and the management of those should be seen in total.
Your speakers will give energy in the wooden floor. Depending of the speaker feets, amplitude and frequency will change.
My speakers are using original spikes plus Harmonix plates.
Different Racks are in use.
- Pre, Dac, CD Transport and Musicserver
are placed on a HRS Rack plus M3 platforms
- Turntable and Phonostage is placed on an Artesania Rack (recommended for Techdas)
Changes to this set up will change the effect of different amp stands as well.
I tried different plates for the VTL S-400 under the original spikes, I used various aftermarket spikes between VTL and wooden floor.
Finally I ended up with a large HRS M3 platform, which was much better on the wooden floor.
specially more control in the bass, more information over the complete frequency band.
Than I has the chance to try CMS Maxxum Amp stand. Resonance control is less good, bass is less defined, but music over all is more engaging,
finally I decided to stay with CMS Maxxum, but in principle HRS M3 was the better damping device.
Active platform from Accurion was tried as well,
but too much damping, less music. I did not like for S-400. Accurion was improving on a cms platform Amp stand, used instead of maxxum platform.
hope that helps
As the complete room is energized by the music, resonances and mechanical vibrations are floating and the management of those should be seen in total.
Your speakers will give energy in the wooden floor. Depending of the speaker feets, amplitude and frequency will change.
My speakers are using original spikes plus Harmonix plates.
Different Racks are in use.
- Pre, Dac, CD Transport and Musicserver
are placed on a HRS Rack plus M3 platforms
- Turntable and Phonostage is placed on an Artesania Rack (recommended for Techdas)
Changes to this set up will change the effect of different amp stands as well.
I tried different plates for the VTL S-400 under the original spikes, I used various aftermarket spikes between VTL and wooden floor.
Finally I ended up with a large HRS M3 platform, which was much better on the wooden floor.
specially more control in the bass, more information over the complete frequency band.
Than I has the chance to try CMS Maxxum Amp stand. Resonance control is less good, bass is less defined, but music over all is more engaging,
finally I decided to stay with CMS Maxxum, but in principle HRS M3 was the better damping device.
Active platform from Accurion was tried as well,
but too much damping, less music. I did not like for S-400. Accurion was improving on a cms platform Amp stand, used instead of maxxum platform.
hope that helps
Hello Ron
It depends on the kind of wood floor : floating, bonded, modern (thin) or ancient thick hard wood.
The worst wood floor is when it has no real concrete structure underneath. In that case, Wood platforms with cones and cups wok fine. I do not favor ball bearing system in that case, nor sorbnothan that over damp the sound.
I tried synthetic+stone mixed platforms that I found better than wood. Wood has a pleasant sound but it is not linear and rob dynamic.
On my wooden floor, thin floating on a special structure my house require (40 cm cement beams !), the best solution is metal platforms like in my audio support Convergence® with cones and bases. This have a really high impedance that reduce vibrations. Metal is soft aluminium with special passive vibrations cancelling system and also special anodization + ... . Of course I use REI-168+RF999-Z form HARMONIX to get a very effective grounding. Transparency and neutrality are very (very) good. The second best is the use of HARMONIX described directly under the amplifier chassis.This work with tubes amplifiers like TENOR when I was dealer of that brand and also under AUDIONET top of range amplifiers which is my last experience.
Best
Philippe
Very interesting: I live in a log home so obviously lots of wood. I have heart of pine flooring(3/4" thick) throughout the home. Block/Concrete Columns for foundation throughout underneath. 6" thick log walls. Aesthetically we wanted to combine Wood/Metal/Stone. I've tried a number of applications for isolation, wood and metal. I'm a hands on person so I like to create. The best isolation in this style home is concrete platforms. Keep in mind the floor platforms weigh north of 250lbs. So this isn't a practical application. The Mephisto and Taiko are on separate floor platforms that are 29" X 23" X 4" thick with 1/2" cork adhered to the bottom. All other components sit on one 80" X 28" X 2" thick shelf. I had to get some farm workers to help set it (5 guys and myself) The large long shelf sits on custom brackets that are lagged into the 6" wall. No contact with the floor. I have a rubber material on the brackets for additional isolation. All components with the exception of the Mephisto all have isoacoustic component isolation. I never took a physics class in my life but it is truly amazing what proper isolation can do.
Lignolabs feet with slate slab minum 1.5inch thick.
Sounds perfect for my ears.
www.lignolab.com
Sounds perfect for my ears.
Low Frequency Damper D172 - LignoLab Audio Equipment
www.lignolab.com
If I understand you correctly, the Mephisto is on a 4 inch platform of concrete with a half- inch cork sheet on the bottom of the concrete. And this platform sits on the floor.
Since the cork is a vibration absorbing material, why did you choose cork rather than, for example, a half-inch sheet of Duro 70 Sorbothane?
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