Amp Stand for Heavy Amp on Wood Floor?

[Ron Resnick]

WRT the butcher block thing:

The idea with a platform is to be able to absorb vibration as much as possible and to provide a still place on which the equipment can sit.

To that end, butcher block by itself isn't all that great- it does resonate (pick it up and hit it!).

Does this concern depend upon the anti-vibration strategy pursuant to which the butcher block is employed? What if in a particular application the butcherblock is not intended to absorb vibration?

For example, if that Butcherblock Acoustics company intends for the butcherblock simply to be very solid and dimensionally stable, in lieu of steel or Corian or granite, but then places above or below the butcherblock, or above and below the butcherblock, vibration absorbing feet and separation discs or hemispheres, does that mitigate the concern that the butcherblock itself is resonant?

 

[MarkusBarkus]

does that mitigate the concern that the butcherblock itself is resonant?

...in my (untested) opinion, it does. If the rack does whatever it does in terms of vibration, but you create individual isolation on each shelf for the components, why wouldn't that work? I also use Herbies isolation discs on the rack spikes between the floor.

@PhP Sincere question: How does rigidity negate vibration? I understand it up to a point, (a bridge, for example), but doesn't it just change the resonant/vibration frequency. The density of the materials will greatly impact energy transmission.

Also, I see the term "drain" used a lot in these discussions, but I do not understand that concept relative to our audio gear. Wouldn't vibration move in both directions? I recognize some semi-rigid/layered footers are designed to convert energy to heat to dissipate it, but if energy can "flow," can't it flow in all directions (albeit at different frequencies/speeds)?

Hope these questions make sense. I was kicked out of physics class for bouncing a laser off a reflector sign on a company smokestack (I was trying to measure the distance), so my application of principles is limited (but fun).

This video is a classic in resonance and vibration effects, if you haven't seen it before. Tacoma Narrows Bridge:

 

[rando]

About platform there are so many theories. Absorb vibration and ground it. Vibration absorption need to have a very good volume but also must be rigid enough to have itself very low modes amplitudes. Wood cannot do that. 30 years ago I bought a platform from Polycrystal (USA), rigid-heavy and self damping due to the material (resin+stone powder). It was great but especially with amplifiers that have quite soft feet. Since manufacturers build more rigid enclosure, the best way is to drain. If you look at what are the support of some brands (Goldmund, Nagra..), the use rigidity to prevent vibrations. This work best, even on NAGRA tubes components. Goldmund stand resonate when you hit it but it not the case when it it is loaded by the turntable of the Digital player. I precise that I have no link with these Swiss brands but I know their work and it's for me the best approach I listened to or tested when I was professor in medical vibrations in a University.
KR
Philippe

Philippe, how would you tailor a solution from these solid beginnings to function optimally in area constantly impacted by earthquakes?

 

[Puma Cat]

carrara marble is crystalline rock, it always sounds too garish for me. birch plywood filled with lead balls and sand has always been very good many shelf manufacturers do it that way. e.g. copulare

Copulare - Stand of the Art - Tonebases by Gerhard Brandl

P. S your dog is great

It's important to note that hard materials, e.g. granite, marble, stone, concrete all have a resonant frequency, and will vibrate. Just ask the folks who were walking down Market Street in San Francisco one day in 1906.

I've found one of the most knowledgeable persons about is is Norm Varney of A/V Roomservice. He makes the EVPs that many, including myself, find very effective for mitigating vibration. Norm is the real deal...

Some videos:

Check these out...using a music box mech with various "ultra-trick" footers...

Also, Norm Varney has a video somewhere showing just how much vibration you can get off granite using for speaker cabinet using a music box mechanism. It rings like a bell.

Check this out:

 

[Audire]

Our amps weigh 200lbs ea.

We use Adona Racks. They will hold much more weight than just what these amps weigh. Great isolation and decoupling on wood floors. They use a very effective granite/mdf platform.

Adona Nemisis

Adona Zero GXT

 

[DasguteOhr]

It's important to note that hard materials, e.g. granite, marble, stone, concrete all have a resonant frequency, and will vibrate. Just ask the folks who were walking down Market Street in San Francisco one day in 1906.

I've found one of the most knowledgeable persons about is is Norm Varney of A/V Roomservice. He makes the EVPs that many, including myself, find very effective for mitigating vibration. Norm is the real deal...

Some videos:

Check these out...using a music box mech with various "ultra-trick" footers...

Also, Norm Varney has a video somewhere showing just how much vibration you can get off granite using for speaker cabinet using a music box mechanism. It rings like a bell.

Check this out:

I can only repeat it like a mantra, slate is different. You can sand it like wood and it's like beech plywood (layer construction). ok they are not straight, have grown naturally. Tap your finger on marble, then slate, and you'll instantly hear the difference. For me excellent sound properties you don't lose any dynamics but it absorbs external influences very well.
get an inch thick plate test it you won't be disappointed.
Link

Entkopplungsplatte Absorber Lautsprecher/Gerätebasis Schiefer 3 cm Varianten | eBay

AußergewöhnlicheLautsprecherunterlage / Entkopplungsplatte aus Mustang-Schiefer. Um eine optimale Entkopplung Ihrer Hifi-Boxen zu gewährleisten, sind schwere Natursteinunterlagen unverzichtbar. Sie erkennen auf den Fotos deutlich die Struktur.

www.ebay.de

 

[Puma Cat]

+1 on bamboo boards as a great cost effective option for hardwood… I’ve stacked these with 30mm and even better 45mm Carrara marble slabs to good effect… and of all of the stone I’ve tried Carrara marble seems to be a good balanced option when used in concert with a counteracting layer of hardwood or bamboo slab.

I've found the $19 IKEA Aptitlig bamboo boards work really well. They are a 3-layer construction, with the bamboo running both horizontally and vertically in alternating layers. Place these Herbie's Audio Labs Tenderfoot footers, and you have a very cost-effective solution for a well-damped platform for components. I've got my TT on an Aptitlig resting on hardwood blocks (my Michell is also sprung, so it has inherent vibration-damping ability) and one of my Altairas on an Aptitlig resting on Tenderfeet.

I can only repeat it like a mantra, slate is different. You can sand it like wood and it's like beech plywood (layer construction). ok they are not straight, have grown naturally. Tap your finger on marble, then slate, and you'll instantly hear the difference. For me excellent sound properties you don't lose any dynamics but it absorbs external influences very well.
get an inch thick plate test it you won't be disappointed.
Link

Entkopplungsplatte Absorber Lautsprecher/Gerätebasis Schiefer 3 cm Varianten | eBay

AußergewöhnlicheLautsprecherunterlage / Entkopplungsplatte aus Mustang-Schiefer. Um eine optimale Entkopplung Ihrer Hifi-Boxen zu gewährleisten, sind schwere Natursteinunterlagen unverzichtbar. Sie erkennen auf den Fotos deutlich die Struktur.

www.ebay.de

View attachment 99958

Good info, thanks!

 

[Willgolf]

It's important to note that hard materials, e.g. granite, marble, stone, concrete all have a resonant frequency, and will vibrate. Just ask the folks who were walking down Market Street in San Francisco one day in 1906.

I've found one of the most knowledgeable persons about is is Norm Varney of A/V Roomservice. He makes the EVPs that many, including myself, find very effective for mitigating vibration. Norm is the real deal...

Some videos:

Check these out...using a music box mech with various "ultra-trick" footers...

Also, Norm Varney has a video somewhere showing just how much vibration you can get off granite using for speaker cabinet using a music box mechanism. It rings like a bell.

Check this out:

For a 175lb amp, if I were to use EVP's with a granite piece does it matter if the EVP was under the granite or the component?

 

[BruceD]

Interesting to see to see the fancy renditions now popping up of the vibrate to heat scenario with sand filled bases.

Remember the US company Brightstar has been making excellent similar "based " products for over 30 years plus reasonably priced.

Iv'e owned them since 93-and they served me well--however my current 4 " Mapleshade Brass footed bases are more to my liking.

YVMV.
BruceD

 

[Puma Cat]

For a 175lb amp, if I were to use EVP's with a granite piece does it matter if the EVP was under the granite or the component?

The EVP should be under the component. And, honestly, I don't think you will need to place it on granite if you are using EVPs. But, try it both ways and see what you think.

 

[Cellcbern]

Does this concern depend upon the anti-vibration strategy pursuant to which the butcher block is employed? What if in a particular application the butcherblock is not intended to absorb vibration?

For example, if that Butcherblock Acoustics company intends for the butcherblock simply to be very solid and dimensionally stable, in lieu of steel or Corian or granite, but then places above or below the butcherblock, or above and below the butcherblock, vibration absorbing feet and separation discs or hemispheres, does that mitigate the concern that the butcherblock itself is

...in my (untested) opinion, it does. If the rack does whatever it does in terms of vibration, but you create individual isolation on each shelf for the components, why wouldn't that work? I also use Herbies isolation discs on the rack spikes between the floor.

@PhP Sincere question: How does rigidity negate vibration? I understand it up to a point, (a bridge, for example), but doesn't it just change the resonant/vibration frequency. The density of the materials will greatly impact energy transmission.

Also, I see the term "drain" used a lot in these discussions, but I do not understand that concept relative to our audio gear. Wouldn't vibration move in both directions? I recognize some semi-rigid/layered footers are designed to convert energy to heat to dissipate it, but if energy can "flow," can't it flow in all directions (albeit at different frequencies/speeds)?

Hope these questions make sense. I was kicked out of physics class for bouncing a laser off a reflector sign on a company smokestack (I was trying to measure the distance), so my application of principles is limited (but fun).

This video is a classic in resonance and vibration effects, if you haven't seen it before. Tacoma Narrows Bridge:

o flex.

Rigidity doesn't mitigate vibration - it exacerbates it. Movement mitigates vibration which is why buildings in earthquake zones are designed to move in response to tremors. Bridges are also designed to flex. Isolation platforms and footers from companies like Wellfloat, Townshend, Isoacoustics, etc. dissipate vibration by moving in response to it.

FYI:

 

[Puma Cat]

Rigidity doesn't mitigate vibration - it exacerbates it. Movement mitigates vibration which is why buildings in earthquake zones are designed to move in response to tremors. Bridges are also designed to flex. Isolation platforms and footers from companies like Wellfloat, Townshend, Isoacoustics, etc. dissipate vibration by moving in response to it.

FYI:

Agreed. I would include the A/V Roomservice EVPs in this set of isolation footers, as well.

 

[Cellcbern]

Interesting reading including the difference between vibration and resonance, and an explanation of natural resonant frequency - fyi (click on both links) :

The Basics of Vibration and Damping in Engineered Designs

In some cases, vibrations can be advantageous while in others, they can be destructive. Learn about the different types of vibration, how they relate to machinery, and solutions...

www.newequipment.com

Resonance & Natural Frequency

Resonance is a phenomenon that amplifies a vibration and this can affect our vibration analysis, learn what it is and how to detect it.

www.erbessd-instruments.com

 

[rando]

Rigidity doesn't mitigate vibration - it exacerbates it. Movement mitigates vibration which is why buildings in earthquake zones are designed to move in response to tremors. Bridges are also designed to flex. Isolation platforms and footers from companies like Wellfloat, Townshend, Isoacoustics, etc. dissipate vibration by moving in response to it.

Please consider what a recently reconstructed listening room with amps sitting all but directly on the floor in a locality where EQ protection is quite robust at this late date, has to do with bridges and high rises. It doesn't.

Homes are made to protect the resident in ways that are very specific. Without any foreknowledge of his exact home there is good reason to suspect it solid enough to, if need be, move a fair distance without collapse or twisting. Giving a reasonably soft ride no less. On top of this consider the reason why such nice houses are built in the same hills as Ron's very nice home and the basis of his trial makes more sense. That last .01% of improvement to his sound reproduction is more likely to keep him up at nights than who his house might rest upon in the morning.

This appears as a very simple test with very long wavelengths over a reasonable distance of time to determine the current prospects of mitigating impact on his sound. Same regimented approach as his cables, same as his eagerness to listen to the same songs ad infinitum.



Edited lightly to restore the decorum upheld on this site.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Use sylomer pads as feet. is heavy foam for machines, buildings and recording studios. are different loads marked by color. works similar to air suspension e.g. vibraplane.

Amazon.de : sylomer pads

Isolation curve

if the load is correct, the curve moves towards 5hz on the pads.

 

[Cellcbern]

Please consider what a recently reconstructed listening room with amps sitting all but directly on the floor in a locality where EQ protection is quite robust at this late date, has to do with bridges and high rises. It doesn't.

Homes are made to protect the resident in ways that are very specific. Without any foreknowledge of his exact home there is good reason to suspect it solid enough to, if need be, move a fair distance without collapse or twisting. Giving a reasonably soft ride no less. On top of this consider the reason why such nice houses are built in the same hills as Ron's very nice home and the basis of his trial makes more sense. That last .01% of improvement to his sound reproduction is more likely to keep him up at nights than who his house might rest upon in the morning.

This appears as a very simple test with very long wavelengths over a reasonable distance of time to determine the current prospects of mitigating impact on his sound. Same regimented approach as his cables, same as his eagerness to listen to the same songs ad infinitum.



Edited lightly to restore the decorum upheld on this site.

The room or house is not equivalent to a building or bridge - the component support with component is. The "tremor" producing force (the speakers) is in the room - not outside of it or the house.

 

[Willgolf]

This thread is an example of why I like WBF so much. If you need information this is the place to come. You don't always have to agree with everything that is said but everyone is respectful and it allows me to further research items that I may not have been aware of.
I am pretty sure I am going to go with an Adona Rack and amplifier system. I will probably use a combination of Herbie's pucks and EVPs. Thanks to all for sharing your ideas and information.

 

[Salectric]

Use sylomer pads as feet. is heavy foam for machines, buildings and recording studios. are different loads marked by color. works similar to air suspension e.g. vibraplane.

Amazon.de : sylomer pads

View attachment 99969
Isolation curveView attachment 99970

if the load is correct, the curve moves towards 5hz on the pads.

I haven’t heard of sylomer pads before. Are they the small blocks under the cone feet on the amp stands? If so I am surprised the sharp cones don’t sink deep into the pads.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Elastic bearings for audio technology

Effectively protecting sensitive audio equipment. Our elastic bearings are easy to install and are highly effective. Click here to find out more.

www.getzner.com

 

[Puma Cat]

This thread is an example of why I like WBF so much. If you need information this is the place to come. You don't always have to agree with everything that is said but everyone is respectful and it allows me to further research items that I may not have been aware of.
I am pretty sure I am going to go with an Adona Rack and amplifier system. I will probably use a combination of Herbie's pucks and EVPs. Thanks to all for sharing your ideas and information.

If you're going to with Adona racks, in the same price range, I would give Core Audio racks some serious consideration.