Amp Stand for Heavy Amp on Wood Floor?

[Ron Resnick]

Willgolf,

Coincidently, for amp stands, I myself was choosing between the Adona and Core Audio amp stands!

Both companies now have leadtimes for what I was looking for of several weeks, and with the amplifiers now scheduled to arrive on November 16, I decided on an interim DIY solution.

In the future I probably will get the Adona Zero GXT-1N with custom walnut insert layer to match all of the other walnut in my room.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I haven’t heard of sylomer pads before. Are they the small blocks under the cone feet on the amp stands? If so I am surprised the sharp cones don’t sink deep into the pads.

No ...bad photo quality zoom in there are steel sheets in between cone pink is sylomer, but sylomer can be compressed by a maximum of 1-2mm
Normaly industries use it, audiophiles find out it sounds good

 

[Kingrex]

I have been looking up pricing for 1/2" aluminum plate and 5/8" acrylic plate. Also how to epoxy adhesive bond the 2 together. Roughly a 2 foot by 8 foot sheet of aluminum is $800 and the acrylic about $300. I need 3 sets to remake my current stand configuration.

I might try this as shelves and amp stands.

I am not sure what I want to set the uprights on the floor with. Felt, spike, pad. I have tried them all and they all have a audible chatacteristic. The uprights are solid wallnut.

 

[rando]

The room or house is not equivalent to a building or bridge - the component support with component is. The "tremor" producing force (the speakers) is in the room - not outside of it or the house.

I more see this the case in multiple component racks with the most sensitive of all equipment, a TT, placed at the very top. Nothing Racks appear to have been settled on there. Why ddk's amp solution has been avoided may be a matter for polite discussion. From memory it lacked showcase LA home centerpiece level finishing. Which cannot be deemed wholly unimportant.

Your addition to what I initially quoted is more fully addressed below

Unlike many, I think Sorbothane is very useful in such an application. Does anyone make an amp stand the heart of which is a thick and broad layer of Sorbothane between two plates of some kind?

Break with idea stated above spurred my interest. Restated to be broadly applicable today - machining the surfaces of a computer processor and heat sink for perfect heat transfer without the need for, returning to audio - Sorbothane, thermal solution invented in tune with reduced tolerances. A bond lasting at least through the product lifespan without potential for material breakdown.

Further complication of vibratory protective measures is where this begins to look interesting. In theory 1923 landscape meets 2023 advancements would be idyllic. My posit was reinforcing of the idea to bring 1923 advancements into 2023 landscape. There is, on top of seismic potential constantly in flux, a lot more ground vibration and surface noise in general today. In room readings of noise level and calm he has reported are appreciable given the years of labor. Enough to examine impact tube era practices have on tubes today. There may just be a few resounding similarities between how early vacuum tube computers were isolated and other house sized objects of more recent manufacture.


Returning to Cellcbern from above.

Nature with equal mind,
Sees all her sons at play,
Sees man control the wind,
The wind sweep man away.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Why ddk's amp solution has been avoided may be a matter for polite discussion. From memory it lacked showcase LA home centerpiece level finishing. Which cannot be deemed wholly unimportant.

I have never seen in person the stainless steel machining precision and finish quality of the AS-2000 or of the Nothing Stands. From the photos I have seen the machining precision and finish quality looks stunningly high and literally perfect and without blemish.

I would love to have Nothing amp stands! I would love to have amp stands that match the racks. I talked with David about amp stands several times. The only reason I did not order from David Nothing amp stands is because of the price. They are very expensive to fabricate. I simply cannot afford them.

 

[rando]

I have never seen in person the stainless steel machining precision and finish quality of the AS-2000 or of the Nothing Stands. From the photos I have seen the machining precision and finish quality looks stunningly high and literally perfect and without blemish.

I would love to have Nothing amp stands! I would love to have amp stands that match the racks. I talked with David about amp stands several times. The only reason I did not order from David Nothing amp stands is because of the price. They are very expensive to fabricate. I simply cannot afford them.

Thank you for clarifying this.

David is less vocal about them than his Nothing Stands or the AS-2000. Believe I understand you perfectly why they are not an option under consideration.

 

[Atmasphere]

Does this concern depend upon the anti-vibration strategy pursuant to which the butcher block is employed? What if in a particular application the butcherblock is not intended to absorb vibration?

For example, if that Butcherblock Acoustics company intends for the butcherblock simply to be very solid and dimensionally stable, in lieu of steel or Corian or granite, but then places above or below the butcherblock, or above and below the butcherblock, vibration absorbing feet and separation discs or hemispheres, does that mitigate the concern that the butcherblock itself is resonant?

In a word, no.
It does help to have the mass since it takes more energy to get it going. But if you're going thru the effort in the first place, at least in my mind its worth it to do it right. This pays on in being able to play the system louder without strain. As I've said on this and other forums for years, its the mark of a good system that it does not sound loud even when it is.

If the platform is properly dead and of sufficient mass, then it can be isolated from its stand using squishies, like Sorbathane or other materials. Then the equipment placed on the platform should be rigidly coupled into the platform by some kind of coupling device, like a point. Three is the magic number of points, since 3 points defines a plane.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Then the equipment placed on the platform should be rigidly coupled into the platform by some kind of coupling device, like a point. Three is the magic number of points, since 3 points defines a plane.

Thank you, Ralph.

If Sorbothane is used underneath the platform to dissipate vibration rising up from the floor, but the amplifier on top is coupled rigidly to the platform with spikes, how is acoustic vibration propagated to the cabinet of the amplifier dissipated if there is no Sorbothane between the feet of the amp and the top of the platform?

 

[Cellcbern]

Thank you, Ralph.

If Sorbothane is used underneath the platform to dissipate vibration rising up from the floor, but the amplifier on top is coupled rigidly to the platform with spikes, how is acoustic vibration propagated to the cabinet of the amplifier dissipated if there is no Sorbothane between the feet of the amp and the top of the platform?

If the isolation platform itself is also designed to absorb/dissipate amplifier resonances then coupling the amp (e.g., with cylinders, spikes/cups, etc.) to the platform should provide a one way path for resonance out of the amp into the platform without it reflecting back the other way. If the platform is just inert and not designed to absorb/dissipate amplifier resonances then it helps to have footers between the amp and platform that will absorb/dissipate the amplifier resonances. In the example of my DIY amp platform that I posted a photo of, the Sorbothane between two Corian boards platform provides isolation from the floor, and the Marigo Mystery Feet between platform and amp absorb/dissipate amplifier resonances. Having said that I have always found top tier footers (e.g., ASI, Dalby, Harmonix, Marigo, etc.) to improve the clarity, articulation, and naturalness of the sound regardless of the type of platform, although they are clearly optional.

You mentioned Adona and Core Audio above. The Adona amp stand for example has an absorbing polymer layer beneath the top granite board so you could start with the factory feet or simple metal spikes/couplers and try top tier footers later at your convenience (or not). The Core Audio amp stand also has an absorbing platform. However both of them have simple spikes to which I would add damping spike cups/shoes for an extra measure of isolation. Bfly Audio's top spike cups (which include Sorbothane) and Herbie's Audio Lab Gliders (which use a different polymer) would be good inexpensive options.

 

[_Alchemist_]

My new amplifier is too big to fit in the rack so it's now on the floor. (audionet humboldt)
I used isoacoustics orea bordeaux below my previous amp but I can't use them directly on this amp, because the feet are triangular and they're raising the chassis too high up the floor for the isoacoustics to touch it.

Since I already have these, I will purchase two ikea LÄMPLIG 46x53 bamboo cutting boards and glue them together, put the isoacoutics below the board and put the amp on top.
It's a cheap experiment to make and I found isoacoustics to work quite well.

Each isoacoustics bordeaux can support 14.5 kg.
You should try them out Ron.

 

[Cellcbern]

My new amplifier is too big to fit in the rack so it's now on the floor. (audionet humboldt)
I used isoacoustics orea bordeaux below my previous amp but I can't use them directly on this amp, because the feet are triangular and they're raising the chassis too high up the floor for the isoacoustics to touch it.

Since I already have these, I will purchase two ikea LÄMPLIG 46x53 bamboo cutting boards and glue them together, put the isoacoutics below the board and put the amp on top.
It's a cheap experiment to make and I found isoacoustics to work quite well.

Each isoacoustics bordeaux can support 14.5 kg.
You should try them out Ron.

That would result in a similar isolation platform to my Corian/Sorbothane one except that bamboo absorbs some resonance in its fiber structure (unlike completely inert Corian) - not enough however in my experience to obviate the need for footers between the amps and bamboo board to absorb/dissipate amplifier resonances. I have a custom bamboo cutting board (easy to order online) between the Dalby Lignum Vitae feet that support my sacd player and a Townshend Seismic Sink air platform, and one between the ASI Top Line Feet that support its Modwright PS 9.0 power supply and a Wellfloat platform.

Review of bamboo cutting boards used as audio platforms/shelves - FYI: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/ikea_aptitlig.htm

 

[Atmasphere]

Thank you, Ralph.

If Sorbothane is used underneath the platform to dissipate vibration rising up from the floor, but the amplifier on top is coupled rigidly to the platform with spikes, how is acoustic vibration propagated to the cabinet of the amplifier dissipated if there is no Sorbothane between the feet of the amp and the top of the platform?

Squishies (like Sorbothane) are used to isolate. 'Dissipate vibration' as you put it isn't their job.

Points are essentially mechanical diodes. They gather energy from a bigger surface and transmit it to a much smaller area. The same amount of vibration starting at the point and going the other way gets dispersed. They are not perfect of course but they are effective. Points have been used in this fashion in the late 1940s and on to help still the table on which LP mastering lathes operated. So this idea isn't something new or audiophile in nature.

In this way vibration from the equipment atop the platform is dissipated into the platform, which probably does convert the energy into heat.

So squishies are meant to decouple, points are meant to couple in one direction only.

Bearings can relieve side to side motion. They pass vertical motion in both directions.

As an example I have my Sound Anchors stand atop a set of bearings. The points of the stand couple energy into the bearings but the energy has a harder time going the other way. Side to side motion is relieved, so if I walk past the stand while an LP is playing footfalls aren't audible. My preamp sits atop a platform for which the stand is designed to accommodate. It is isolated from the stand to prevent any vibration of the stand from messing with the platform.

The platform is composed of 3/4" steel plate, bonded to a constrained damping layer about 1/2" in thickness, which is in turned bonded to high grade marble. Its quite dead! The platform weighs about 85 pounds and damps the preamp quite effectively. A similar setup is used beneath the turntable on the top of the stand.

The point of this is to make the front end of the system as impervious to vibration as possible. Structural motion is rejected and/or damped depending on which plane its in; airborne vibration is transmitted into the platforms and converted to heat. This allows me to play the system to a higher volume without it sounding loud. As I said before the mark of a good system is one that does not sound loud; can retain its relaxed character even at sound pressures over 100dB.

 

[tima]

Squishies (like Sorbothane) are used to isolate. 'Dissipate vibration' as you put it isn't their job.

Points are essentially mechanical diodes. They gather energy from a bigger surface and transmit it to a much smaller area. The same amount of vibration starting at the point and going the other way gets dispersed. They are not perfect of course but they are effective. Points have been used in this fashion in the late 1940s and on to help still the table on which LP mastering lathes operated. So this idea isn't something new or audiophile in nature.

Hi Ralph, I almost never disagree with you - for good reason - but let me give a teeny bit of pushback here.

I cannot speak to squishes in general however my understanding of Sorbothane is that it converts mechanical energy into heat as the material is deformed. "Molecular friction generates heat energy that translates perpendicularly away from the axis of incidence." (ref) Dampening - dissapating energy as heat - is part of its job.

I understand points as isolators. The amount of energy transferred from a larger surface is less through a point than the amount of energy transferred from a larger surface to a surface larger than a point. The idea of the mechanical diode is a one-way transference of mechnical energy. We see many amp stands and speakers contacting the floor with points. I thought the purpose of using spikes was to prevent floor-borne energy from entering the amp or speaker. They may act as drains to some extent but their primary job is isolate, to minimize energy transfer from below.

My grasp of the ideal support is one that dampens from above and isolates from below. That doesn't seem to far afield from your last paragraph.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Ralph.

I guess I must not be understanding you, because I am not seeing why it is not a good strategy to have squishies between the feet of the amplifier and the top of the platform to dissipate acoustic vibration propagated to the cabinet of the amplifier by sound from the speakers, and squishies between the bottom of the platform and the floor to dissipate physical vibration transmitted to the underside of the platform from the floor itself; in other words, squishies on both ends with a platform in the middle. If the platform in the middle itself resonates then that vibration will be absorbed either by the squishies on top of the platform or by the squishies underneath the platform, or by both.

Why not squishies on both ends, rather than squishies on one end and points (mechanical diodes) on the other?

Are both strategies theoretically valid, and it’s simply a matter of deciding which sounds better subjectively? Or is there something theoretically unsound (pun intended) with the dual squishy strategy?

 

[Cellcbern]

Hi Ralph, I almost never disagree with you - for good reason - but let me give a teeny bit of pushback here.

I cannot speak to squishes in general however my understanding of Sorbothane is that it converts mechanical energy into heat as the material is deformed. "Molecular friction generates heat energy that translates perpendicularly away from the axis of incidence." (ref) Dampening - dissapating energy as heat - is part of its job.

I understand points as isolators. The amount of energy transferred from a larger surface is less through a point than the amount of energy transferred from a larger surface to a surface larger than a point. The idea of the mechanical diode is a one-way transference of mechnical energy. We see many amp stands and speakers contacting the floor with points. I thought the purpose of using spikes was to prevent floor-borne energy from entering the amp or speaker. They may act as drains to some extent but their primary job is isolate, to minimize energy transfer from below.

My grasp of the ideal support is one that dampens from above and isolates from below. That doesn't seem to far afield from your last paragraph.

FYI:

Ten Misconceptions about Loudspeaker Spikes - Positive Feedback

Ten Misconceptions about Loudspeaker Spikes

positive-feedback.com

According to Norman Varney, spikes/"points" do not isolate but rather couple, and being rigid they transfer energy in both directions regardless of the size/mass at ether end. It follows that you can only have a one way "mechanical diode" if the spike/point sits in/on something that absorbs/dissipates the energy, preventing it from reflecting back in the opposite direction.

 

[Cellcbern]

Thank you, Ralph.

I guess I must not be understanding you, because I am not seeing why it is not a good strategy to have squishies between the feet of the amplifier and the top of the platform to dissipate acoustic vibration propagated to the cabinet of the amplifier by sound from the speakers, and squishies between the bottom of the platform and the floor to dissipate physical vibration transmitted to the underside of the platform from the floor itself; in other words, squishies on both ends with a platform in the middle. If the platform in the middle itself resonates then that vibration will be absorbed either by the squishies on top of the platform or by the squishies underneath the platform, or by both.
enders the pla
Why not squishies on both ends, rather than squishies on one end and points (mechanical diodes) on the other?

Are both strategies theoretically valid, and it’s simply a matter of deciding which sounds better subjectively? Or is there something theoretically unsound (pun intended) with the dual squishy strategy?

Assuming you'd want to use "squishies" directly under an amp (I wouldn't) you would want them under the chassis not the factory feet because you don't know to what extent/how effectively the factory feet (which tend to be cheaply made) are coupled to or decoupled from the chassis. Better to replace the factory feet with something that is a known quantity. While "squishies" both isolate and damp vibrations they are not equally good at both, and placed directly under a component you cannot predict or control how well they do either. In my experience Sorbothane and the like almost always soften dynamics and muddy the sound when used directly under a component. Note that if you read the technical descriptions of SRA platforms at their website it says the the "box" that houses their proprietary interior mix of polymers and devices is a hard conductive surface that conveys component resonances to what is inside. If you put "squishies" between an amp and an Adona or Core Audio platform for example, you would isolate the component from the platform which would defeat the platforms' absorbing/dissipating capability.

 

[Ron Resnick]

If you put "squishies" between an amp and an Adona or Core Audio platform for example, you would isolate the component from the platform which would defeat the platforms' absorbing/dissipating capability.

I agree. When I referred to “platform” in my post I meant a single slab of something like butcherblock or Corian or steel or granite. I did not mean a holistically-designed amp stand with its own constrained layer damping isolation/absorption strategy.

 

[Atmasphere]

Thank you, Ralph.

I guess I must not be understanding you, because I am not seeing why it is not a good strategy to have squishies between the feet of the amplifier and the top of the platform to dissipate acoustic vibration propagated to the cabinet of the amplifier by sound from the speakers, and squishies between the bottom of the platform and the floor to dissipate physical vibration transmitted to the underside of the platform from the floor itself; in other words, squishies on both ends with a platform in the middle. If the platform in the middle itself resonates then that vibration will be absorbed either by the squishies on top of the platform or by the squishies underneath the platform, or by both.

Why not squishies on both ends, rather than squishies on one end and points (mechanical diodes) on the other?

Are both strategies theoretically valid, and it’s simply a matter of deciding which sounds better subjectively? Or is there something theoretically unsound (pun intended) with the dual squishy strategy?

If the squishies are dissipating energy, which they do, why have a platform at all?

The answer is a properly designed platform is more effective, but to be so the equipment on it has to be rigidly coupled to it.

Whenever you're looking at these applications, think about the equipment and what it is sitting on. If a non-engineered shelf, you'll want squishies under the equipment to isolate it from the shelf. But if the shelf is designed to be anti-resonant and dead, then points are what you use.

In my case I use squishies under the platform because its more dead than the stand is, despite the stand being sand filled. So you do have to work this stuff out.

I cannot speak to squishes in general however my understanding of Sorbothane is that it converts mechanical energy into heat as the material is deformed. "Molecular friction generates heat energy that translates perpendicularly away from the axis of incidence." (ref) Dampening - dissapating energy as heat - is part of its job.

Any isolation isomeric is going to function as you describe here. What my point (if you see what I did there) is that all squishies are isomeric isolation. I don't think you can rely on them to be perfect at their job; that's why there are platforms.

 

[Cellcbern]

I agree. When I referred to “platform” in my post I meant a single slab of something like butcherblock or Corian or steel or granite. I did not mean a holistically-designed amp stand with its own constrained layer damping isolation/absorption strategy.

With a non-absorbing/dissipating "single slab" you could have sorbothane between it and the floor for isolation and sorbothane between it and the component which would provide additional isolation and some absorption/dissipation of component resonances. I wouldn't use sorbothane (or anything "squishy") between component and platform because as I've said my experience has been that "squishies" used directly under a component tend to soften dynamics and muddy the sound. If you look at the top tier high end component feet (e.g., ASI, Dalby, Harmonix, Marigo, Revopod, Stillpoints, Wellfloat) all of them are either hard materials (ceramic, metal, plastic, wood) and/or use movement to dissipate resonances - none are "squishy".

 

[tima]

If the squishies are dissipating energy, which they do, why have a platform at all?

The answer is a properly designed platform is more effective, but to be so the equipment on it has to be rigidly coupled to it.

Whenever you're looking at these applications, think about the equipment and what it is sitting on. If a non-engineered shelf, you'll want squishies under the equipment to isolate it from the shelf. But if the shelf is designed to be anti-resonant and dead, then points are what you use.

In my case I use squishies under the platform because its more dead than the stand is, despite the stand being sand filled. So you do have to work this stuff out.

Okay - but that is not born out in practice in many cases. I use my SRA Virginia-Class amp stands as a model. I know you and Kevin know each other so I'll defer to him. SRA says to put the component on the platform as is, with nothing between the component's feet and the platform. The somewhat hard rubber(?) feet of my amps do not make what I'd call a rigid coupling with the top of the amp stand - yes more rigid than Sorbothane (what isn't?) The amp stand itself sits on the floor via points/spikes. The outer platform the amp sits on is decoupled (partially by vacuum.) from from the interior platform that holds the feet - that isolates the platform the amp sits on from the floor. Viscoelastics and proprietary paint absorb energy from the component and direct it away from the component.

While a squishy separates a component from a shelf it can still intake energy from above and below. I suppose they can be isolators in a limited sense though I've always understood them more as dissipators/disintegrators/scatterors. I agree about platforms when they are systems.

I believe there can be different ways to build a platform with different constructions yielding different results. And I agree that 'you have to work this stuff out.'