Amp Stand for Heavy Amp on Wood Floor?

[Atmasphere]

Thank you for this careful analysis!

And the foregoing is correct in this idiosyncratic case even though the platform is simple butcherblock, which you advise us is resonant?

You'll recall that I advised a fix for that.

I have seen equipment stands that were so resonant they actually made things worse. Expensive too.

My comments are based on each bit of vibration control (stand, point, squishy, platform) all working properly and not particularly compromised.

 

[Cellcbern]

The job of the platform is to convert energy into heat. A good platform will be far better at this than Sorbathane or the like. But to do that the equipment has to be coupled into it so that any air borne vibration that is imparted to the equipment is instantly stopped by the platform. You need points to couple to the platform.

If you decouple the equipment from the platform by using Sorbathane or the like you are defeating the purpose of the platform. I think you'll find at that point that you could remove the platform and hear no difference at all. The platform can only do its job if the equipment is rigidly coupled to it and for that you use points.

This must be the third or fourth time this has been explained.

 

[retired farmer]

Thank you for this careful analysis!

And the foregoing is correct in this idiosyncratic case even though the platform is simple butcherblock, which you advise us is resonant?

Everything vibrates you want to find things that limit those and that sound musical. Look at the number of high end cartridges that have rosewood bodies why do you think they do that? Over a butcher block look far a hardwood plank much better than a glue up and woods that are more dense than maple. Hard maple is better than regular maple but still not great. A cheap wood that if you can find it large enough is pedra very dense. I have never tried it but should be good used for decking and the trailer tops on semi trailers the highboy ones. Look for a book called wood as an engineering product I am sure there are many sites with wood specifications on them. Coca Bola is also a great sounding wood many people me included has a reaction to the sawdust from it. That is very bad on me. If you try this and your armpits and crotch get itchy run into to the show right then wash your clothes and shower again and never do anything with it. Some people can handle it others cannot. I had a bryston 10b on tip of a piece of that very nice. Pure heart is not too bad for money I bought a 20 foot long piece by 2.5 inches thick and 19 inches wide for two thousand dollars. Remember these woods take real saws not homeowners garbage to cut with real saw blades. Look for Forrest woodworker blades or at that level. Chip out in way way.less and they cut smooth and clean.

Regards Tom

 

[retired farmer]

Purple heart. Sorry auto correct

 

[Salectric]

Aside from hypotheses based on engineering principles or physics, it is helpful to catalog anecdotal experiences and arrive at working hypotheses to guide future decisions.

Here is a case in point. I moved to a new house a couple months ago and have had lots of problems getting my system to sound anywhere near as good as it did in my old house. The new room is about the same size but the floor is carpet over concrete whereas the old room had carpet over plywood. My Sound Anchor amp stands have steel spikes and the stands worked fine in the old room where the spikes pierced the carpet and bedded into the plywood subfloor. In the new room the spikes pierced the carpet and made direct contact with the concrete. That turned out to be terrible sonically. When I placed a brass disk under each spike so the spikes no longer pierce the carpet or touch the concrete, the sound improved dramatically. Previously with the spikes on the concrete, the upper bass and lower mids were thin and lean, and the midrange and treble were ragged and edgy. Now with the spikes floating above the carpet, the missing warmth and richness have been restored and the overall sound is much smoother and no longer edgy.

I thought of this experience yesterday when I attended the first day of the Capital Audio Fest. The vast majority of rooms, maybe 80% of the ones I entered, sounded awful. Bright, edgy, shrieking highs; lean lower midrange; and very unnatural bass. Surprisingly similar problems to what I had in my system before I floated the spikes on my amp stands (although my system never sounded as unnatural as the CAF rooms). And of course most of the rooms at CAF had spikes or cones under the speakers, amp stands and racks, and all of the rooms have concrete floors.

Now we all know audio shows hardly ever show off equipment to their full potential, especially in hotel rooms, and the first day is always the worst since the gear needs to bed in and the folks need to play around with positioning, wall damping, etc.

But my point is that one of the reasons for the poor sound is probably the spikes and cones making contact with the concrete floor. And that’s my working hypothesis.

 

[retired farmer]

I m

Aside from hypotheses based on engineering principles or physics, it is helpful to catalog anecdotal experiences and arrive at working hypotheses to guide future decisions.

Here is a case in point. I moved to a new house a couple months ago and have had lots of problems getting my system to sound anywhere near as good as it did in my old house. The new room is about the same size but the floor is carpet over concrete whereas the old room had carpet over plywood. My Sound Anchor amp stands have steel spikes and the stands worked fine in the old room where the spikes pierced the carpet and bedded into the plywood subfloor. In the new room the spikes pierced the carpet and made direct contact with the concrete. That turned out to be terrible sonically. When I placed a brass disk under each spike so the spikes no longer pierce the carpet or touch the concrete, the sound improved dramatically. Previously with the spikes on the concrete, the upper bass and lower mids were thin and lean, and the midrange and treble were ragged and edgy. Now with the spikes floating above the carpet, the missing warmth and richness have been restored and the overall sound is much smoother and no longer edgy.

I thought of this experience yesterday when I attended the first day of the Capital Audio Fest. The vast majority of rooms, maybe 80% of the ones I entered, sounded awful. Bright, edgy, shrieking highs; lean lower midrange; and very unnatural bass. Surprisingly similar problems to what I had in my system before I floated the spikes on my amp stands (although my system never sounded as unnatural as the CAF rooms). And of course most of the rooms at CAF had spikes or cones under the speakers, amp stands and racks, and all of the rooms have concrete floors.

Now we all know audio shows hardly ever show off equipment to their full potential, especially in hotel rooms, and the first day is always the worst since the gear needs to bed in and the folks need to play around with positioning, wall damping, etc.

But my point is that one of the reasons for the poor sound is probably the spikes and cones making contact with the concrete floor. And that’s my working hypothesis.

I might try disc's under the spikes on my boards. I don't think mine sounds the way you say but you never know til you hear better.

 

[Salectric]

@retired farmer
It never hurts to try something as you certainly have done with the various types of wood platforms you’ve tried. But I won’t be surprised if your results are different from mine. My Sound Anchor stands are all steel with steel spikes. Wood platforms behave differently. I have tried a number of wood racks and platforms including walnut, oak, maple, sapele and anigre, and for the most part I prefer the wood designs over metal and composites. Wood has some damping going on that is quite different from metal racks and platforms.

 

[retired farmer]

What w

@retired farmer
It never hurts to try something as you certainly have done with the various types of wood platforms you’ve tried. But I won’t be surprised if your results are different from mine. My Sound Anchor stands are all steel with steel spikes. Wood platforms behave differently. I have tried a number of wood racks and platforms including walnut, oak, maple, sapele and anigre, and for the most part I prefer the wood designs over metal and composites. Wood has some damping going on that is quite different from metal racks and platforms.

What is your thoughts on oak? I did a set of speaker stands for my home theatre speakers. The wood store had some that was the right size so I bought it. Built them stained them black they look good with the black oak veneer of the speakers. That being said because of the speaker design it was a huge improvement but wonder if I am missing a bunch still. The speakers are a small tower with the base port out the bottom. Neat sx 1 or sx 3 lol one is a stand mount the other is a tower have both as one is the rear surround can ot remember which number is which. Anyhow the base was terrible with the port firing into the carpet. I just watch TV and movies though it so it is really nice but I think they likely should hit deeper the speaker are supposed to be basically flat to 27. And I don't know how much I can expect as an end result. A nad receiver arcam blue ray. MIT 2 wire. The speakers should go deeper than the sub which I don't think they are the sub is mid fi at best likely low fi.

 

[Salectric]

What w

What is your thoughts on oak? I did a set of speaker stands for my home theatre speakers. The wood store had some that was the right size so I bought it. Built them stained them black they look good with the black oak veneer of the speakers. That being said because of the speaker design it was a huge improvement but wonder if I am missing a bunch still. The speakers are a small tower with the base port out the bottom. Neat sx 1 or sx 3 lol one is a stand mount the other is a tower have both as one is the rear surround can ot remember which number is which. Anyhow the base was terrible with the port firing into the carpet. I just watch TV and movies though it so it is really nice but I think they likely should hit deeper the speaker are supposed to be basically flat to 27. And I don't know how much I can expect as an end result. A nad receiver arcam blue ray. MIT 2 wire. The speakers should go deeper than the sub which I don't think they are the sub is mid fi at best likely low fi.

I like red oak. It seems to be more neutral than some others I’ve tried. I haven’t done too many A vs B comparisons but red oak and maple are the wood I use most often. These days I am rather limited in my available wood suppliers so I have little opportunity to try exotic woods.

 

[Salectric]

I am afraid I have to revise some of what I posted earlier today. It’s Day 2 of the Capital Audio Fest and many of the rooms I complained about yesterday sound much better today, and they are still using cones and spikes into the concrete floor. So much for general hypotheses.

 

[Cellcbern]

I am afraid I have to revise some of what I posted earlier today. It’s Day 2 of the Capital Audio Fest and many of the rooms I complained about yesterday sound much better today, and they are still using cones and spikes into the concrete floor. So much for general hypotheses.

No conclusions to be drawn from the use of spikes or not at Capital Audiofest where speakers and racks are placed for only a couple of days on thick, padded carpet and expediency is more of a factor than in a home audio system. Note also that I saw plenty of decoupling spike receptacles and other isolating footers and platforms there under speakers and racks. A number of the top tier speakers I saw had decoupling footers integral with the attached speaker platforms.

 

[Atmasphere]

I am afraid I have to revise some of what I posted earlier today. It’s Day 2 of the Capital Audio Fest and many of the rooms I complained about yesterday sound much better today, and they are still using cones and spikes into the concrete floor. So much for general hypotheses.

Generally speaking the 3rd day is where people have sorted out the various problems they are up against and so the rooms tend to sound their best on that day...

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don’t understand the concept of objectively over-damped.

Question for those who find that Sorbothane results in an overly-damped sound: Is there anything objective behind this conclusion? Or is the conclusion simply another subjective sonic preference (which would be perfectly okay)?

Putting the question another way, how do you know that the Sorbothane is doing something detrimental to the sound, and that you are not simply preferring the sparkle of excessive resonance when you remove the Sorbothane?

 

[Atmasphere]

I don’t understand the concept of objectively over-damped.

Question for those who find that Sorbothane results in an overly-damped sound: Is there anything objective behind this conclusion? Or is the conclusion simply another subjective sonic preference (which would be perfectly okay)?

Putting the question another way, how do you know that the Sorbothane is doing something detrimental to the sound, and that you are not simply preferring the sparkle of excessive resonance when you remove the Sorbothane?

You can't overdamp something!

You can introduce colorations if damping materials are misused or if they aren't up the task of their job.

 

[Ron Resnick]

You can't overdamp something!

I am agnostic on this subject, as it is not my field.

But the people who report that Sorbothane makes their components sound over-damped — and this is a common report — obviously believe that one can over-damp something.

 

[Atmasphere]

I am agnostic on the subject.

But the people who report that Sorbothane makes their components sound over-damped obviously believe that one can over-damp something.

I don't doubt that! There is an enourmous difference between belief and reality.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don't doubt that! There is an enourmous difference between belief and reality.

There sure is! Especially in a largely subjective hobby like this one!

 

[Salectric]

It's been a long time since I used any Sorbothane. After trying it a number of times in a number of places, I just threw it all out. That was at least 15 years ago. As I recall, what I heard each time was a warm, soft, mushy sound with leading edges rounded off. I would not have described it as "over-damped" but rather as excessively colored.

 

[Atmasphere]

IIRC Sorbathane was a developed for shoes. Its not really the ideal material to use in a constrained layer.

 

[Cellcbern]

I am agnostic on this subject, as it is not my field.

But the people who report that Sorbothane makes their components sound over-damped — and this is a common report — obviously believe that one can over-damp something.

Not "obviously" at all. Sounding "over-damped" and being over-damped are two different things. Some audiophiles (yours truly included) just use "over-damped" as a convenient descriptor for the relative softening of dynamics I sometimes hear when Sorbothane is used directly under a component.