An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief"

[the sound of Tao]

"Suspension of disbelief" is wordy-clever audiophile reviewer-speak that strikes me as gear-head oriented. Even the bot seems to recognize that though it doesn't realize what it is saying. "In the subjective hobby of high-end audio, "suspension of disbelief" refers to the phenomenon where an individual, typically an audiophile or music enthusiast, experiences a level of immersion and emotional engagement in the music that goes beyond the technical aspects of the audio system." Imagine that -- having an emotional engagement with music that goes beyond technology.

What I can accept and do believe is that there is a point where we slow cerebral cortex processing of what we hear and 'allow' music to light up our limbic system. I don't believe this is intentional. The non-cognitive experience of music can trigger areas in the brain sufficient to cause the release of endorphins; when they reach the limbic system’s opioid receptors, feelings of satisfaction ensue.



More bot: "In the context of high-end audio, suspension of disbelief occurs when the listener becomes so engrossed in the musical experience that they forget they are listening to a reproduced sound rather than a live performance. "

As much as music can elicit emotion or feelings of satisfaction, I am sceptical of the notion that at some point we 'feel' reproduction is indistinquishable from reality.

Either way I’d figure visual evidence overrides any lasting ear trickery before too long. Perhaps if we’d never experienced a hifi system in our lives we might be confused by the new experience. But listening to music through systems that reproduce music is our expectations norm, the brain streams that reaffirming reality back to us constantly.

I get the experience of moments of realness but this doesn’t override my comprehension and recall of the experience of the hifi into any lasting real suspension no matter how good the sound is. The wonderful sight of seven foot tall open baffles only serves to reinforce that I’m having a fantastic time but listening to recordings… and loving it (with fleeting moments of realness and all) . Sure I drink and sure I keep the lights low… but I do avoid hallucinogenics though.

Ultimately there are a number of qualities that would make most systems not seem utterly and unfazingly believable for any realistically consistent duration… and its way more than just the need for resolution going on, there’s the very real challenge of proper scale and lifelike dynamics that pose an immediate and obvious illusion dealbreaker.

 

[bonzo75]

Perhaps if we’d never experienced a hifi system in our lives we might be confused by the new experience. But listening to music through systems that reproduce music is our expectations norm, the brain streams that reaffirming reality back to us constantly.

This is exactly it. When someone writes that he suspends disbelief in any high end system, I see a noob who is just enthralled by seeing big speakers and big sound. Like wow, this is 7 feet tall and speaker to speaker is 15 feet wide so that is closer to the length and breadth of the orchestra as compared to a soundbar.

 

[tima]

Ultimately there are a number of qualities that would make most systems not seem utterly and unfazingly believable for any realistically consistent duration… and its way more than just the need for resolution going on, there’s the very real challenge of proper scale and lifelike dynamics that pose an immediate and obvious illusion dealbreaker.

I agree. The current day resolution uber alles strikes me as a fad.

edit: i was just listening to Shostakovich Sym 8 3rd mvmnt on the power oomph thread -- scale and dynamics, strength and honor.

 

[microstrip]

I ask you for your definition, and you dodge and parry.

Thank you for proving my belief that you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

As could be foreseen now you are reasoning like a bot ...

As far as I see it, our threads are not definition contests, but mostly arguing on our points of view.

A forum like WBF is unique because it brings many experiences of audiophiles that have very different opinions on these subjective matters. As could be expected in a discussion concerning stereo these opinions are often conflicting and the interest and value of the discussion relies in freedom and individual thinking. The use of the averaged ChatGPT definition conditions the evolution of a debate to a mediocre discussion.

BTW, are you also going to ask ChatGPT if vinyl sounds better than digital?

 

[microstrip]

ChatGPT says:
However, it's important to note that the experience of suspension of disbelief is highly subjective and may vary from person to person based on individual preferences, listening skills, and emotional connection to the music.

While its constant -- yet correct -- emphasis on subjectivity in diverse explanations of high-end audio may be annoying to some, the AI bot actually reveals more insight into human nature than many humans have. The reason obviously is that the creators of ChatGPT forced it to draw from a collective of numerous human sources in the process of synthesizing its answers.

Contrast that with the tiresome dogmatism and absolutism of a number of WBF members who constantly tend to elevate their own personal, subjective experiences and opinions into some universal truth, often with the attitude of (said or unsaid) "I have much more knowledge than you do".

No, Al M. Sorry but in this hobby I prefer the dogmatism of people with experience to a pseudo "collective". I do not object to dogmatism and absolutism in these subjective matters as long as people stay civilized and do not move in insulting/denigrating fights.

BTW, I am sure that ChatGPT will prefer ASR to WBF.

 

[microstrip]

Come on, take up the challenge and spend 10 seconds and come up with your own definition! Let US judge which is better. Hopefully you don't lose to a chat bot! Good Luck.

Again, this is the point. I am not interested in finding "the better definition", but on an exchange of point of views about the subject, something that needs an equilibrated participation. It will not take just ten seconds and needs unconditioned participation of other members.

If you are interested on the subject I suggest you google "willing suspension of disbelief" , the original expression.

 

[Al M.]

No, Al M. Sorry but in this hobby I prefer the dogmatism of people with experience to a pseudo "collective". I do not object to dogmatism and absolutism in these subjective matters as long as people stay civilized and do not move in insulting/denigrating fights.

Interesting statement coming from you who has vigorously, and in my view correctly, argued against one of those dogmatisms and absolutisms that started to develop about two years ago and implied denigration of other system approaches.

 

[PeterA]

I agree. The current day resolution uber alles strikes me as a fad.

edit: i was just listening to Shostakovich Sym 8 3rd mvmnt on the power oomph thread -- scale and dynamics, strength and honor.

Tim, I see resolution for resolution’s sake to mean fascination with detail. This may indeed be a fad. I think of resolution somewhat differently. Scale, dynamics, strength and honor, plus realistic timbre, are all characteristics of a high resolution system for me.

Assuming a good recording, how could a system that does not present a sense of scale or dynamics convincingly be considered resolving?

 

[wil]

ChatGPT says:
However, it's important to note that the experience of suspension of disbelief is highly subjective and may vary from person to person based on individual preferences, listening skills, and emotional connection to the music.

While its constant -- yet correct -- emphasis on subjectivity in diverse explanations of high-end audio may be annoying to some, the AI bot actually reveals more insight into human nature than many humans have. The reason obviously is that the creators of ChatGPT forced it to draw from a collective of numerous human sources in the process of synthesizing its answers.

Contrast that with the tiresome dogmatism and absolutism of a number of WBF members who constantly tend to elevate their own personal, subjective experiences and opinions into some universal truth, often with the attitude of (said or unsaid) "I have much more knowledge than you do".

Well said.

I’ll start worrying about ChatGTP when it starts emulating some of the over-inflated ego’s found on Internet forums.

 

[howiebrou]

Again, this is the point. I am not interested in finding "the better definition", but on an exchange of point of views about the subject, something that needs an equilibrated participation. It will not take just ten seconds and needs unconditioned participation of other members.

If you are interested on the subject I suggest you google "willing suspension of disbelief" , the original expression.

Googling it would condition me. Would like to hear your point of view on this subject Micro.

 

[Another Johnson]

In my opinion, and in my usage, I have always said “is this believable?” I’ve never said “is my disbelief suspended?”

The simple concept that the presentation is believable works best for me.

 

[Elliot G.]

WBF IMO has officially enetered the Twilight Zone. I agree with Ron that his is argueing for the sake of argueing and it has become pervasive on so many threads.
I personally think the definition as stated is excellent.
I feel bad for people that have not had that audio sensation or as we called them GMIA's in their room or home. For as long as I have been listening I have loved when the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars and I got a GMIA ( Great moment in audio) in my space.
Did I think I was in a concert hall, probably not really, but I was so involved and enjoying it I just didnt care.
This is what I live for and love and to others that don't I am not sure what it is that you want from your system. Please explain.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Ron started the thread himself.

What do you think you re gonna get if you start a thread with such a tittle.

I know some more tittles to get the Fire going on WBF :

Can somebody explain why Sets are more natural sounding then other amplifierdesigns

Are cone speakers for beginners and do experienced audiofiles automatically gravitate to horns?

Narural sound
when you know your system has it and other systems dont?

Digital is for beginners yes or no ?


Etc etc

These are all open questions .....resulting
In endlless bickering

 

[PeterA]

In my opinion, and in my usage, I have always said “is this believable?” I’ve never said “is my disbelief suspended?”

The simple concept that the presentation is believable works best for me.

I think it is a very strange phrase. And do those who use it really need AI to define it for them?

“Belief“ is never the basis on which I judge the quality of the experience I’m having when listening to music.

 

[Al M.]

Can somebody explain why Sets are more natural sounding then other amplifier designs

Excellent question.

 

[morricab]

Ron started the thread himself.

What do you think you re gonna get if you start a thread with such a tittle.

I know some more tittles to get the Fire going on WBF :

Can somebody explain why Sets are more natural sounding then other amplifierdesigns

Are cone speakers for beginners and do experienced audiofiles automatically gravitate to horns?

Narural sound
when you know your system has it and other systems dont?

Digital is for beginners yes or no ?


Etc etc

These are all open questions .....resulting
In endlless bickering

SETs have a harmonic distortion pattern that “hides” better to the ear/brain than other patterns made by other topologies. It is about psychoacoustics, not raw measurements of THD and IMD.

 

[Lee]

I think we would be well served to get Jim Smith to weigh in here. I love his approach to setup and the end goal is really suspension of disbelief or as he says "to become immersed in the music." He did that for my system.

When I listen to records or digital, I just focus on the performance now. I marvel at the sound quality but I am no longer thinking about the gear. It's more of a "how can it get better than this" thought.

The original definition is really good. Not sure there is a lot to debate there.

I think if we analyze it then the formula, if you will, is Great Room + Quality Gear + Precision Setup = Sonic Heaven.

And more often than not, the Precision Setup is lacking.

Observation...I don't you need to have SET + Horns to get there. There are equally valid but different paths to get there.

 

[Carlos269]

I think if we analyze it then the formula, if you will, is Great Room + Quality Gear + Precision Setup = Sonic Heaven.

I will argue that you can leave “Great Room” out of that equation. What is a “Great Room” anyway? Your formula as it stands would preclude those without a “Great Room” from attaining “Sonic Heaven”. Try to sell that to Michael Fremer for example.

Furthermore, your equation as defined would imply that Harry Person and J. Gordon Holt never experienced “Sonic Heaven”…..and who would want to believe that?

 

[Al M.]

SETs have a harmonic distortion pattern that “hides” better to the ear/brain than other patterns made by other topologies. It is about psychoacoustics, not raw measurements of THD and IMD.

I guess Ralph from Atmasphere OTL amps will disagree with you there.

 

[Al M.]

Observation...I don't you need to have SET + Horns to get there. There are equally valid but different paths to get there.

Heretic!

We'll burn you at the stake!

Not really, thankfully. But sometimes it feels that way on this forum.