Analog Audio Design TP-1000

[Zeotrope]

Is ReVox still selling “as new” B77? They are on the website but it says out of stock and they can’t be ordered. I sent them an email.

I’m vary wary of buying a used machine because I don’t know if I can trust the seller. And even if the seller is not lying, a ~30 year old machine will still likely have issues. A brand new machine should be fine for a decade or more… but yeah, I get that if I’m a decade the company doesn’t exist, a new machine will be harder to fix.

Jumping back to new machines, perhaps the Ballfinger will me more serviceable if the company goes under, through Thorens? I have spoken to Roland (head of Ballfinger). He’s nice but doesn’t seem super eager to sell!

 

[Foxbat]

Let us not forget such a thing as proven reliability record. You seem to presume that a new machine should be more reliable, which is not the case. Even if the company still existed ten years from now (which is not guaranteed, just look at the play field... littered with bad bodies...) the product reliability can fall anywhere. Small companies don't have the resources of Studer of Ampex, that would allow them to iron out the issues.

Don't take me wrong - I applaud you for giving the new companies a chance, but you should consider all the possible implications.

 

[Zeotrope]

So $20k + shipping (from the US) for the TP=1000 seems like a decent price. (I’m not going to compare with restored vintage machines; but by my research, it’s difficult to find a reliable vendor and I can see restored & used machines costing $50k…).
The Ballfinger M002P is $16k USD (plus shipping).

I love the Gold Edition TP-1000, but it’s $32k! Cannot justify a ~57% price increase for just cosmetic differences. It should be the same price, or maybe a thousand more… I am not that vain that I will pay $12k for yellow anodization vs silver… But, I have to admit, the Gold Edition does look good. The standard unit looks fine, as if it were designed by an engineer (which it was). The Gold has a got something right, it’s more of a luxury ‘statement’ piece… but still not going to swallow a nearly 60% price hike.

 

[Foxbat]

I am not trying to sway you, since your mind is set on a new machine, but for the sake of accuracy (kids are reading this, you know... ), for instance a fully restored Ampex ATR-102 can be had for about $20K, and that is one helluva machine, including the Flux Magnetics heads, with up to 30ips speeds, 14" reels, easy format conversion and with direct output cards.

I got one recently from Myriad Magnetic, and I could not be happier!

 

[Zeotrope]

I am not trying to sway you, since your mind is set on a new machine, but for the sake of accuracy (kids are reading this, you know... ), for instance a fully restored Ampex ATR-102 can be had for about $20K, and that is one helluva machine, including the Flux Magnetics heads, with up to 30ips speeds, 14" reels, easy format conversion and with direct output cards.

I got one recently from Myriad Magnetic, and I could not be happier!

Thanks, I did check out Myriad; but they don’t seem to sell machines. I will reach out.

Now let me provide a counterpoint to your point:
$20k for a ~30+ year old machine seems risky. Any of the myriad components can fail or not perform to spec, at any time. Yeah, yeah, it’s been gone over by a pro; but that doesn’t mean the probability of failure of a component is lower. [Analogy: I can have a trusted mechanic go over my 30 year old car. It doesn’t mean that a component won’t fail after I drive off. They can only speak to how well it works when the machine is being inspected.]
Certain key parts are definitely not new, such as heads, rollers, guides.
Modern motors and controls Will perform better (e.g., speed stability) than 30+ year old designs. [I am fully aware that certain vintage components perform better than modern: my midrange horns are RCA 1443 and nearly 100 years old - I dare anyone to find a better sounding midrange. But I have never heard of a 1980s motor controller outperforming a modern CPU stabilized brushless motor!]
A brand new machine should run for 10+ years without issue, and there’s a warranty if it anything fails early on. (Electronics follow a U-shaped failure curve: they either fail quickly or not for a long time.)

 

[Foxbat]

I would check, I believe they build them to order, and you can specify different options. They built mine in about 4 months, with some options I wanted. It does come with new heads, unless you specify the relapped ones.

As far as what is more risky... the Ampex boards are very well designed and built. When you buy the Ballfinger you buy a pile of Ali Express circuit boards plus some poorly made ones. I have seen the very detailed complete tear down of that machine and... let me put it politely, I was not impressed. I am speaking as a professional electronic designer with over 50 years of experience. I have not seen similar analysis of TP-1000, so I am not passing any judgement on it.

While it is true that today it is POSSIBLE to build stiffer speed control, that does not automatically mean that a Product X has such advanced technology, and on top of that we are discussing audio circuit, not Moon rocket guidance system. The age cuts both ways... today you can build a violin on a jig with sub-micron accuracy, but people will still want a Stradivarius.

Anyway, this is not meant to be adversarial, hopefully hearing different opinions will help you make the right - for YOU - decision.

 

[Zeotrope]

I would check, I believe they build them to order, and you can specify different options. They built mine in about 4 months, with some options I wanted. It does come with new heads, unless you specify the relapped ones.

As far as what is more risky... the Ampex boards are very well designed and built. When you buy the Ballfinger you buy a pile of Ali Express circuit boards plus some poorly made ones. I have seen the very detailed complete tear down of that machine and... let me put it politely, I was not impressed. I am speaking as a professional electronic designer with over 50 years of experience. I have not seen similar analysis of TP-1000, so I am not passing any judgement on it.

While it is true that today it is POSSIBLE to build stiffer speed control, that does not automatically mean that a Product X has such advanced technology, and on top of that we are discussing audio circuit, not Moon rocket guidance system. The age cuts both ways... today you can build a violin on a jig with sub-micron accuracy, but people will still want a Stradivarius.

Anyway, this is not meant to be adversarial, hopefully hearing different opinions will help you make the right - for YOU - decision.

Absolutely not taken the wrong way at all, and I appreciate your comments!

Looking at this as somewhat of an outsider, it’s early days in the revitalization of the industry (if viewed optimistically)…

Honestly, my main hesitation is the degradation of tapes after ~100 plays. The vinyl community was up in arms when Supersense released ~$500 lacquers that wear after 100 plays. But this seems like what all tapes do, and they can cost double this amount.
How do you guys think about it? Do you just assume each play “costs” about $10, and you have a lot of tapes so it’s unlikely you’ll play each one 100x?

 

[Foxbat]

If anyone had tons of experience in the regard to tape wear, that would be Jonathan - you saw his reply. And he is someone who sells the direct copies of his masters, so the said masters get played quite a few times. In addition to all that experience he also has great pair of ears.

Personally, I can't imagine playing the same tape 50 or more times without developing strong negative feelings towards it, no matter how good it is. I know audiophiles tend to play the same "reference" recording more times than they should... very bad practice for many reasons.

Be it as it may, the tape cost IS a serious issue for many of us, but it looks like you already crossed that Rubicon, so I think your goal should be searching for the best quality reproducer. In that regard getting a machine with Flux Magnetic heads would be a great step.

I am speaking as someone who at one point came close to buying the Ballfinger. At least seriously considered it.

 

[Zeotrope]

Are the AMB heads in the TP-1000 Flux Magnetic? What does that even mean?

I am seriously considering the Ballfinger. It has a nice thin form factor (which I agree there must be many sonic advantages to a bigger chassis), and it’s “only” about $15k — probably the lowest price new model on sale.

 

[Zeotrope]

Looking at the price increases of the TP-1000 and I’m shocked and disappointed. Obviously they can charge whatever they want, but this is not the way to increase adoption.
2 years ago, the price of the TP-1000 was 10,000EUR
1 year ago - 15,0000 EUR and the Gold Edition - 24,000 EUR
Now - 18,250 EUR and 34,000 for the Gold. Wow and WTF?? 42% increase for the Gold in 1 year, really?!

Inflation was nowhere near these levels.

 

[dminches]

For that price you could get a refurbished Technics RS-1500 and Doshi tape pre which will sound eons better than the Ballfinger.

 

[Zeotrope]

For that price you could get a refurbished Technics RS-1500 and Doshi tape pre which will sound eons better than the Ballfinger.

Talking about the TP-1000 not the Ballfinger. The Ballfinger M002P is about $16k.

 

[dminches]

Talking about the TP-1000 not the Ballfinger. The Ballfinger M002P is about $16k.

Sorry. Meant the TP-1000.

 

[Zeotrope]

Not a fan of the Japenese decks.
What about a ReVox B77 MkII? Under $10k fully restored by ReVox?

 

[dminches]

Not a fan of the Japenese decks.
What about a ReVox B77 MkII? Under $10k fully restored by ReVox?

What experience do you have with Japanese decks that makes you say that?

 

[Foxbat]

Well, in the B77's favor speaks its established reliability record, but... it is a low technology machine, when you compare it to some other choices.

It is a very nice machine if bought for under $2K, but its functions are far from being advanced. There is no tape tension control, for instance, and its mechanical tape counter is... well, it is very old fashioned.

My concern is - you are considering a serious funds allocation, but you don't yet seem to have good grasp on the market, models, functions, etc. It is your money, of course, but if I were you I would spend more time investigating the subject. There are many fine choices out there.

 

[dminches]

I have a Studer A810 and A812, a Tascam BR-20, Revox PR99 MKII, Otari MX5050 II and several Technics RS-1500s. The Technics handles tape better than any of the other decks. As a prosumer machine it is missing some of the features that the Studers have, like library wind and ease of calibration for record, but I use the Technics just to play back tapes with my Doshi so I don’t miss those features.

This is just my opinion, but if you are trying to get the same level of playback with reel that you get with your TT setup I don’t think you can with the stock electronics in the Studers or Ampex decks. Some may disagree but that’s been my experience.

 

[Foxbat]

David, you are correct, but there are easy ways around it with most machines. Of all the options out there I like the Ampex elegant solution the most.

 

[dminches]

David, you are correct, but there are easy ways around it with most machines. Of all the options out there I like the Ampex elegant solution the most.

What is the “elegant” solution for Ampex? The outboard preamp, MR-70?

 

[Foxbat]

I meant the way of connecting the external preamp using internal wiring.