None, other than aesthetics and I’ve never heard of the Japanese brands mentioned alongside the typical European brands and Ampex. But just my rudimentary opinion.
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Analog Audio Design TP-1000
- Thread starter stellavox
- Start date
Yup, this is exactly what I am doing!
I also have space constraints, so a full console is out of the question.
Thanks for your input.
My hypothesis is that no tape machine will match what I’m hearing with the Nagra TT and phono… but I’m happy to be proven wrong. And it’s always good to have different experiences (just like digital has its benefits but doesn’t match the SQ of the TT).
I guess the price increase is from adding distribution/dealer margins to the 10,000 launch price (which was a direct sale price), so that takes it to 16,000. Then a 12% increase in the last year, which can (sort of) be explained by inflation over 2 years (European inflation has been worse than US).
However, I still don’t understand the Gold edition price increase of 42% in a year!? Actual price of gold is up 15% in the last year, so it’s not that!
I have explained it in various posts, and it’s based on a similar comment that Fremer made on his website.
In summary: if you take into account that a vinyl album is closer to the master tape in generation, and all of the advancements made to vinyl tables, tonearms, phono stages, etc, over the past few decades; while tape tech has stood still - a world class modern turntable may exceed the best tape deck available.
I’m specifically referring to a TechDas AF0 or AF1, SAT, Nagra, or a handful of other TTs.
Fremer said he would do the comparison himself if he gets a worthy tape machine…
Thank you.
I would rather take the other side of this argument. Sure, you can make sure your argument wins by stacking the deck against tape by assuming several generations away from the master.
Mike Lavigne may have more experience with these comparisons than anyone. I'll vote for his standing pronouncement on the matter.
I am confident that for my ears on the same title my best tape achieves a higher suspension of disbelief than my best vinyl. And I'm not even using the Doshi tape repro.
Why don't you buy a top tape machine and a Tape Project tape and find out for yourself?
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without some considerable experience listening to tapes on top level decks these musings are not very useful. honestly there is no substitute for actual in person listening to hear for yourself what vinyl cannot do. I've done these type compares for years. there are tapes that just go to another level. but you need to search for them. and then tape decks are just part of the equation; the heads and output electronics are very significant. even the particular installation and tweaking of the deck is important. this stuff is not plug and play at the top level if you want to hear tape at it's very very best.
as far as Fremer's perspective, how can he judge what tape decks or tapes represent the top level? and many times the tape sources for preferred Lp's are not in very good condition. so how does he discover best tapes? he would have to spend lots of time on that part first. it's taken me years and years. so to understand what tape can do takes some work............to have confidence in the right tools and media to do it.
better to leave tape performance postulations out of your posts. as far as turntables at the top rank used to judge the tape, of course this is a different subject. we all have our own opinions. but I would caution that using list price for turntables as the ranking method is not really credible either. those most spendy decks are all nice, but that does not separate their performance clearly from others. only the actual performance does.
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I agree. Just depends on your perspective. If 20K is not a significant sum to spend and this is more just for pleasure than for work, reliability and servicing might not be as much of an issue. For professionals, they will likely go for something they are more familiar with. Spooling a tape past the heads at a constant speed is more complicated than you imagine. You just need to look at the control electronics of a SOTA machine such as the Studer A820 and the Nagra T Audio to appreciated it. As to whether there are any real advance from the state of the art of the past generation, this remains to be proven.
I guess you are referring to the Nagra IV-S, which is great for space saving, but a pain in the butt for everything else. It was designed for portability, and it still has the best performance to weight ratio. It also looks cool, but the cost has shot up in the past 10 years. The Nagra TA has more facilities than one ever needs. What it lacks is tip top output electronics, which is why I have bypassed the native output board. It is superb for recording. It is also a complicated machine that is difficult for amateurs to maintain.
Just to give you my experience. I use a Nagra IV-S for location recording, and a Nagra T Audio for playback. Since you already have a Nagra TT, why not consider a T Audio as well ? It will fit in well with your existing gear aesthetically, and size-wise, it is the smallest professional machine I am aware of. It can accommodate up to 300mm reels. I know Nagra still sells totally refurbished machines, but I don't know how much they charge nowadays. I paid 8000 CHF for mine with new heads and belts, but that was like 15 years ago. I paid about 2500 CHF for the Nagra IV-S with QGB. I imagine they are now charging quite a bit more, given the current demand.
If you want to dip your toes in first, buy a properly restored B77. I got mine recently from Nagravox in Australia, a high speed machine together with an additional 4 track headblock. I also bought a new output board from Audvance in the Netherlands, with switchable Eq. The whole thing came to around $3500. You can start with 4 track 7.5 ips tapes, which are very cheap, and then move on to 15 ips 2 track tapes later if you decide you like tape sound. The machine won't lose much value if you decide to upgrade later.
If you want to dip your toes in first, buy a properly restored B77. I got mine recently from Nagravox in Australia, a high speed machine together with an additional 4 track headblock. I also bought a new output board from Audvance in the Netherlands, with switchable Eq. The whole thing came to around $3500. You can start with 4 track 7.5 ips tapes, which are very cheap, and then move on to 15 ips 2 track tapes later if you decide you like tape sound. The machine won't lose much value if you decide to upgrade later.
Reading through your posts over the last few pages of this thread It seems to me that you are puttting forward far more reasons for not embarking upon the large format tape journey than you are for doing so. I recommend heeding the advice proffered whilst also perhaps reconsider whether this format is really for you..
Merely my 2c .
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In this hobby I don't think it makes sense to try to correlate simplicity of mission with price or reliability. It seems to me that an interconnect has a much easier job than a tape machine or a turntable, and look at the prices of the most expensive interconnects.
And if one is looking down at how easy it is to turn a tape past a head, I would argue that a turntable's job of spinning a platter is simpler -- and look at how much the Nagra turntable costs.
I agree. I feel the zerotrope is simply looking for reasons to support his hope that tape cannot sound better than vinyl, so he does not have to go down a whole new rabbit hole of audio endeavor to achieve the pinnacle of sound reproduction in this hobby.
Not at all, Ron. I am willing and open to listen and compare and to keep an open mind. And I’m ready to spend good money to have a tape machine. So you’re not quite right.
I don’t see much open mindedness here, unfortunately. Fremer’s point is that the comparison has not been done )with the best machines). And I am talking about the turntables mentioned, with a P10 or Nagra HD Phono. There are many great turntables, at many price points. I am talking about the pinnacle of what’s available today, and while we can argue which models should be on that list, I have listed the 3 most likely contenders that should definitely be on the list.
Aren’t you curious to see what the state of the art sounds like for both mediums? In terms of tape/album variability - of course you need to account for that, and that’s easy: compare the same album from the same recording. 2xHD offers many great albums mastered from the original tape, on both vinyl and tape copy.
EDIT: Johanthan Vallin claims in his review of the Metaxas Tourbillon that it is better than anything he has heard. So there’s that; but he doesn’t clarify what “everything he has heard” really is…
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I´ve had many of those machines and the A80 even in std beats the shit out of them all....with Nextgen reproboards we´re talking different galaxy
btw A810 and 12 and even 820 have same opampbased audio cards
I had TTP modded Otari too
This is easier said than done. The mastering of tape, LP and digital are not transparent. It is rare that you end up with the same mastering on all 3, or even 2, mediums. The whole concept of "mastered from the original master tape" is questionable at best.
btw TdP told me his favourite machine was a Denon and he did ATR 102 custom electronics like the one Kavi had and had extensive experience more than most regarding rebuilding and tweaking tapemachines
I use a Doshi tape preamp with those so I am not talking about the internal electronics.
Let’s talk when you have heard the same album (e.g., from 2xHD) on both your best tape machine and on an SAT/Nagra/AF0/OMA K3, with a CH P10 or Nagra HD Phono. Until then, we are just spinning our wheels and it’s an exercise in futile subjectivity.
I am also looking at it with another goal in mind: none of the music storage and playback media are optimal today, and that’s a problem for many reasons. As a tech entrepreneur, I am always looking for the next thing to sink my teeth into…
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