Analog Audio Design TP-1000

[Zeotrope]

This is easier said than done. The mastering of tape, LP and digital are not transparent. It is rare that you end up with the same mastering on all 3, or even 2, mediums. The whole concept of "mastered from the original master tape" is questionable at best.

Agreed but labels like 2xHD are very transparent in how they master on both vinyl and tape. The tapes are made at the same time as the lacquer is being cut…

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I use a Doshi tape preamp with those so I am not talking about the internal electronics.

still the A80 chassis seems to anchor the mechanics and even the electronics in a way that affect stability and even fundament in reproduction.....the 810 and 812 are "close but no cigar"...I also have a Telefunken M15 ....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Let’s talk when you have heard the same album (e.g., from 2xHD) on both your best tape machine and on an SAT/Nagra/AF0/OMA K3, with a CH P10 or Nagra HD Phono. Until then, we are just spinning our wheels and it’s an exercise in futile subjectivity.

what leads you to this strong opinion that these products rise above the rest? that they are enough better/superior to other choices to change the vinyl/tape equation? that listeners with other products not on your list somehow don't qualify to have credibility on this question? since that is exactly what you are saying.

and this is with zero tape listening yourself.

but transferring review hyperbole to broad based reality is a stretch.

and viewing Valin's Metaxas comments as useful to establish any sort of reference for tape playback is a mistake. I'm sure he loved it, and I'm sure it's good. but beyond that nothing to hang your hat on.

I am also looking at it with another goal in mind: none of the music storage and playback media are optimal today, and that’s a problem for many reasons. As a tech entrepreneur, I am always looking for the next thing to sink my teeth into…

if you really want to investigate what tape playback can do then listen to some for yourself.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Not at all, Ron. I am willing and open to listen and compare and to keep an open mind. And I’m ready to spend good money to have a tape machine. So you’re not quite right.

Thank you for explaining. I apologize for assuming.

I don’t see much open mindedness here, unfortunately. Fremer’s point is that the comparison has not been done )with the best machines). And I am talking about the turntables mentioned, with a P10 or Nagra HD Phono. There are many great turntables, at many price points. I am talking about the pinnacle of what’s available today, and while we can argue which models should be on that list, I have listed the 3 most likely contenders that should definitely be on the list.
Aren’t you curious to see what the state of the art sounds like for both mediums?

I see now that our difference is that I consider this question already to have been asked and answered. In my opinion Mike Lavigne does this comparison, at the top level for both formats, all the time.

I appreciate that Michael Fremer has not yet performed this top level vinyl versus top level tape comparison for himself, and I think it's great that he wants to do so.

PS: Even when my top tape and top vinyl of the same title are a tie on typical audiophile attributes, the tape wins because the tape manifests what I keep referring to as its "relaxed" quality. I appreciate that until you have heard this you will not understand what I'm talking about.

Also, as free from ticks and pops is top vinyl playback today, there still is an occasional tick and pop and a level of surface noise which does not exist on tape.m

My all-tube system's noise floor already is higher than an all solid-state system's noise floor. I find tape playback to be quieter than vinyl playback in general.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Agreed but labels like 2xHD are very transparent in how they master on both vinyl and tape. The tapes are made at the same time as the lacquer is being cut…

"very transparent" is a relative term to how good the tape is to begin with. garbage in <-> garbage out.

the best tapes in my experience are not from well known recordings mostly, they are 'live' recordings of 'live' events simply recorded and not messed with. labels like 2xHD are dealing with mostly processed recordings. not saying they might not sound very good, better than the vinyl transfer. only that they are not going to display the ultimate performance of the best tape. just like direct to disc has the highest ceiling for vinyl performance, simple live recordings have the highest for tape. fewer steps, more musical realism. of course, the separator is those simple tapes and great performances. then tape rises above. it is the most 'complete' format to relate reality.

but unless/until you spend lots of time with tape, no way to understand that.

 

[Zeotrope]

what leads you to this strong opinion that these products rise above the rest? that they are enough better/superior to other choices to change the vinyl/tape equation? that listeners with other products not on your list somehow don't qualify to have credibility on this question? since that is exactly what you are saying.

and this is with zero tape listening yourself.

but transferring review hyperbole to broad based reality is a stretch.

and viewing Valin's Metaxas comments as useful to establish any sort of reference for tape playback is a mistake. I'm sure he loved it, and I'm sure it's good. but beyond that nothing to hang your hat on.

if you really want to investigate what tape playback can do then listen to some for yourself.

That’s what I am saying, Mike, that I want to LISTEN for myself! If you read what I wrote more carefully, I am talking about keeping an open mind and discovering what the differences are… something that few others here seem to be interested in. Disappointed in you, first and foremost.

 

[Zeotrope]

"very transparent" is a relative term to how good the tape is to begin with. garbage in <-> garbage out.

the best tapes in my experience are not from well known recordings mostly, they are 'live' recordings of 'live' events simply recorded and not messed with. labels like 2xHD are dealing with mostly processed recordings. not saying they might not sound very good, better than the vinyl transfer. only that they are not going to display the ultimate performance of the best tape. just like direct to disc has the highest ceiling for vinyl performance, simple live recordings have the highest for tape. fewer steps, more musical realism. of course, the separator is those simple tapes and great performances. then tape rises above. it is the most 'complete' format to relate reality.

but unless/until you spend lots of time with tape, no way to understand that.

Obviously, but that’s not a fair comparison. Saying you have a one-off(?) tape that is likely a direct master is obviously incomparable to anything on vinyl. To keep it apples to apples and in a way that anyone can experience, you must use albums that can be purchased today; hence 2xHD since they master for both mediums at the same time, with an attention to detail that is quite rare.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Obviously, but that’s not a fair comparison. Saying you have a one-off(?) tape that is likely a master is obviously incomparable to anything on vinyl. To keep it apples to apples and in a way that anyone can experience, you must use albums that can be purchased today.

none of my tapes are one offs, actual masters. all of my tapes can be purchased if you know the right person. some of these are commercial tapes too from sellers here such as Ultra Analog.

if you want to talk about my favorite tapes PM me and I can tell you about them. I don't sell tapes myself, not trying to sell you anything. only that while you can buy nice tapes of iconic recordings that do go farther than vinyl on ANY turntable, there is a world of tapes beyond that.

 

[Zeotrope]

Thank you for explaining. I apologize for assuming.



I see now that our difference is that I consider this question already to have been asked and answered. In my opinion Mike Lavigne does this comparison, at the top level for both formats, all the time.

I appreciate that Michael Fremer has not yet performed this top level vinyl versus top level tape comparison for himself, and I think it's great that he wants to do so.

PS: Even when my top tape and top vinyl of the same title are a tie on typical audiophile attributes, the tape wins because the tape manifests what I keep referring to as its "relaxed" quality. I appreciate that until you have heard this you will not understand what I'm talking about.

Also, as free from ticks and pops is top vinyl playback today, there still is an occasional tick and pop and a level of surface noise which does not exist on tape.m

My all-tube system's noise floor already is higher than an all solid-state system's noise floor. I find tape playback to be quieter than vinyl playback in general.

Thanks, that’s great to hear, Ron.

I don’t want to argue about the differences among the top-level turntables and phono pre-amps; but the comparison with the “world’s-best” has not yet been done, using the same album, from the same master. Hence the interest (at least for me).

 

[Zeotrope]

none of my tapes are one offs, actual masters. all of my tapes can be purchased if you know the right person. some of these are commercial tapes too from sellers here such as Ultra Analog.

if you want to talk about my favorite tapes PM me and I can tell you about them. I don't sell tapes myself, not trying to sell you anything. only that while you can buy nice tapes of iconic recordings that do go farther than vinyl on ANY turntable, there is a world of tapes beyond that.

Thanks, appreciate it.

Well, I‘ll be joining the ranks of tape owners at some point this year. Excited and a bit wary of having to learn “another medium”… looking forward to your help (if I haven’t alienated anyone with my views!).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks, appreciate it.

a bit wary of having to learn “another medium”…

I totally understand this. It's a little scary.

Out of the 56 buttons, knobs and controls on the A820, I am authorized to touch only six of them, so that makes it a bit less daunting.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That’s what I am saying, Mike, that I want to LISTEN for myself! If you read what I wrote more carefully, I am talking about keeping an open mind and discovering what the differences are… something that few others here seem to be interested in. Disappointed in you, first and foremost.

open minded?

but you are holding back assigning credibility for the vinyl<->tape compare result to your list of turntables and phono stages?

or are you not?

these are two things you just wrote.

"Fremer’s point is that the comparison has not been done )with the best machines). And I am talking about the turntables mentioned, with a P10 or Nagra HD Phono. There are many great turntables, at many price points. I am talking about the pinnacle of what’s available today, and while we can argue which models should be on that list, I have listed the 3 most likely contenders that should definitely be on the list."

"Let’s talk when you have heard the same album (e.g., from 2xHD) on both your best tape machine and on an SAT/Nagra/AF0/OMA K3, with a CH P10 or Nagra HD Phono. Until then, we are just spinning our wheels and it’s an exercise in futile subjectivity."

 

[Zeotrope]

open minded?

but you are holding back assigning credibility for the vinyl<->tape compare result to your list of turntables and phono stages?

or are you not?

these are two things you just wrote.

"Fremer’s point is that the comparison has not been done )with the best machines). And I am talking about the turntables mentioned, with a P10 or Nagra HD Phono. There are many great turntables, at many price points. I am talking about the pinnacle of what’s available today, and while we can argue which models should be on that list, I have listed the 3 most likely contenders that should definitely be on the list."

"Let’s talk when you have heard the same album (e.g., from 2xHD) on both your best tape machine and on an SAT/Nagra/AF0/OMA K3, with a CH P10 or Nagra HD Phono. Until then, we are just spinning our wheels and it’s an exercise in futile subjectivity."

Yes, I am interested in the TT decks I mentioned, only because it becomes more subjective and difficult for others to replicate as the list grows. This is not to say that Turntable Brand ‘X’ (perhaps even a custom modded unit) cannot outperform a TechDas TF0; but I am trying to keep it such that anyone can replicate the results.

I understand that price is not always directly correlated to performance. (My ~$50k custom one-off speakers probably outperform speakers costing multiples of this price, and perhaps have no equal in terms of midrange tone, clarity, speed, and distortion… but no one else can replicate this, so it’s kind of a moot point.)
Therefore, since we have to draw the line somewhere, and if we are to pick the top 5 TTs available today, it seems like an easy choice would be:
AF0
OMA K3
Nagra Reference
SAT
Thorens Reference

And I have heard first hand what kind of difference a phono preamp makes, so the CH Precision and Nagra HD are natural choices.

 

[Zeotrope]

I totally understand this. It's a little scary.

Out of the 56 buttons, knobs and controls on the A820, I am authorized to touch only six of them, so that makes it a bit less daunting.

It’s a very impressive machine in its own right, Ron, congratulations on acquiring what I’m sure is a very fine example!
I wish I had the space for a full console machine…

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, I am interested in the TT decks I mentioned, only because it becomes more subjective and difficult for others to replicate as the list grows. This is not to say that Turntable Brand ‘X’ (perhaps even a custom modded unit) cannot outperform a TechDas TF0; but I am trying to keep it such that anyone can replicate the results.

I understand that price is not always directly correlated to performance.

do you? really? or maybe with turntables you do think price is absolutely correlated to performance. how could you make a different case?

(My ~$50k custom one-off speakers probably outperform speakers costing multiples of this price, and perhaps have no equal in terms of midrange tone, clarity, speed, and distortion… but no one else can replicate this, so it’s kind of a moot point.)
Therefore, since we have to draw the line somewhere, and if we are to pick the top 5 TTs available today, it seems like an easy choice would be:
AF0
OMA K3
Nagra Reference
SAT
Thorens Reference

And I have heard first hand what kind of difference a phono preamp makes, so the CH Precision and Nagra HD are natural choices.

well....ok. at least I'm clear about it.

you have your credibility line.

 

[Zeotrope]

Thank you for a great chat, @Mike Lavigne - much appreciated.

The TP-1000 is a single capstan machine with a pinch roller, correct?

 

[Foxbat]

What seems to be missing from the discussion is the fact that no system ever represents the reality, they all are merely giving us their unique portrayal of same.

It is like arguing which landscape painting is more "real" - they are all presented through the eyes and technique of an artist, and a cheap phone photo will beat them all in "accuracy".

A very old example of being able to instantly identify the sound of a live brass orchestra still applies. I have heard many high end systems, but none has been able to convincingly present anything besides the simplest program - a single flute, for instance.

So I find all that "which media is better" argument largely pointless. Ditto for the "best sound I have ever heard".

Do we really care if Zeotrope buys a tape deck?

 

[Zeotrope]

What seems to be missing from the discussion is the fact that no system ever represents the reality, they all are merely giving us their unique portrayal of same.

It is like arguing which landscape painting is more "real" - they are all presented through the eyes and technique of an artist, and a cheap phone photo will beat them all in "accuracy".

A very old example of being able to instantly identify the sound of a live brass orchestra still applies. I have heard many high end systems, but none has been able to convincingly present anything besides the simplest program - a single flute, for instance.

So I find all that "which media is better" argument largely pointless. Ditto for the "best sound I have ever heard".

Do we really care if Zeotrope buys a tape deck?

I’m not sure why you’re always so negative? Does it make you feel better to put down anything new or different??

If you haven‘t closed your eyes and been able to suspend your disbelief when listening to a great system and thinking you “are there”, you have never heard a great system. Simple as that.

I grew up listening to classical music, especially the violin, as my dad is a professional violinist. Every night in my system, I play a great recording and shake my disbelief and smile, as it seems like the musicians are in the room. You really aught to experience that, at least once!

That is the goal most if not all of us are trying to attain. That’s the point of trying to get better equipment, a better room, better music… at least I know it is for me.

 

[Foxbat]

Are you aware there are people equally swearing by 3W SET amplifiers, and those 1000W solid state monsters?

They are all apparently able to... ahem... suspend their disbelieves.

 

[Zeotrope]

Reading the recent responses; in the audio business, haven't we been led to believe that new is ALWAYS better. Well guess what!.
I DO hope that some of the new efforts succeed.

Was musing with U47 about Studer machines and which of them will be around in 10 or 20 years. We agree on our favorite - the A80. But I'll be long gone, so it's all irrelevant.

In the case of digital circuits, CPUs, electric motors and motor controllers, newer is most certainly better. How many of you are using digital computers from 50 years ago? Other vintage gear that does not rely on digital electronics can indeed sound better than modern (tube amps, speakers); but given the choice, I would always choose modern electronics over vintage.

Not trying to step on any toes (that’s why I’m posting in this thread). I just think it’s funny that some people just cannot conceive that a new machine is better. Tape speed, W&F, SNR, noise, it’s night and day, guys — it’s Moore’s Law. These are digital machines more than anything. Do you have a DAC from 5o years ago?

Tape path is another often cited example of why modern machines “cannot possibly” be better. Well, tape path for modern machines has been built on experience with vintage machines. That’s certainly the case for Metaxas and UHA (not sure about Ballfinger and Analog Audio; but presumably they studied and have experience with vintage machines). In other words, these modern machines ‘stand on the shoulders of giants’. I think you die-hard vintage guys (you know who you are!) need to be way more open-minded and spend some series time with the new machines. Also consider that the more you put them down (without basis), the worse it is for the R2R industry.
[Peace out. I have no desire to engage in this debate, but I just had to express how disappointed I am (as a true audiophile with a pretty nice system, as I am getting into R2R), the amount of ignorant and negative comments about anything new.]

Late 1970s/early 80s computers: