Another Apogee thread? You bet!

christoph

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2015
4,659
4,058
825
Principality of Liechtenstein
Just for the record.
I drive my Apogee Studio Grands with 30 SET Watts and everybody who heard them was more than surprised ;)

And by the way, I prefer the KR Audio VA 350 and the KR Audio Kronzilla SX sonically over the Lamm M1.1 hybrid monos I also have :p

Granted, the Studio Grands/Studio Ribbon Arrays are the easiest to drive Apogees with 87db per Watt in 3 meters and a linear impedance of around 6 ohms over the whole frequency range :cool:
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,987
978
Switzerland
Just for the record.
I drive my Apogee Studio Grands with 30 SET Watts and everybody who heard them was more than surprised ;)

And by the way, I prefer the KR Audio VA 350 and the KR Audio Kronzilla SX sonically over the Lamm M1.1 hybrid monos I also have :p

Granted, the Studio Grands/Studio Ribbon Arrays are the easiest to drive Apogees with 87db per Watt in 3 meters and a linear impedance of around 6 ohms over the whole frequency range :cool:
I can confirm the good sound from this setup...heard it many times and always excellent sound.
 
  • Like
Reactions: christoph

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,346
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
And by the way, I prefer the KR Audio VA 350 and the KR Audio Kronzilla SX sonically over the Lamm M1.1 hybrid monos I also have :p

This is very interesting to me.

Would you please give us your sonic impressions of the Lamm hybrid versus the KRs? Why do you prefer the KRs?

Thank you.
 

MRJAZZ

Industry Expert
Jan 20, 2014
403
206
350
On another note, I was in Atlanta and went to visit Mike Powell (OCD Hifi Guy on YouTube). He is known to have a pretty amazing system. His main speakers are the big Analysis with a Magneplanar ribbon tweeter outboard and GR Research open baffle servo subs. He had them tri amped with Rowland, NAT, and I forget the other amp. He direct streamed with no preamp. The room was not ideal, but the sound was stunning. He has testimonials on his YouTube channel of people who have visited and their responses. Everyone is pretty much blown away. The one thing that stuck out in my mind was his speaker placement. Because the room is shallow, he had the Analysis positioned tweeter out (with Magnepan tweeter outside the Analysis tweeter) and the speaker toed in A LOT. The soundstage was immense and everything was butter smooth. I got home and tried this with my mini Grands and it is quite amazing. It’s a pretty radical setup, but it creates the effect that Kong describes earlier in this thread. I tried that too, but I prefer this arrangement. Everything must be measured and precise for maximum effect, but WOW! He has many videos of his setup on YouTube Grab some headphones and listen. As far as the Analysis speakers, I don’t really have an opinion. The tweeters were used only as a filler between the bass panels and the Magneplanar tweeters. His rig is modified a lot so it’s hard to tell how any one component impacts the presentation.
Do you recall in your visit if he mentioned the crossover point for the Maggie Ribbon Tweeter? The Maggie Ribbon Tweeters are crossed over ( I believe) at 3 K in their designs ( 20.7, 3.7i), however if pushed hard they frequently will blow fuses, or the actual Ribbon will just fail.
Since the Analysis Ribbon is used as a “filler”, and their tweeter isn’t to bad on its own, I would guess he could get away with a much higher crossover point. This would allow the “System“ to play much louder, and stress free and eliminate the fuse/Ribbon section used with the Maggie Ribbons from failing.
 

Zero000

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2014
2,985
1,139
478
where are you located? There was a guy near New York who owned the Duetta ultimate, excellent system. The only duetta I liked. Actually I prefer well done Scintilla, they have similar smaller size relative to FR and diva, pure ribbon midrange and better bass. But there are many poorly done scintilla too. This one was modified by Henk for Christoph
Jerry the MBL dude came round a couple of months ago. You know him you've been to see him.

He started playing some seriously average classical recordings.

I have to say I actively hate classical music on Apogees. They cannot flatter it. They just expose how average to poor so many classical recordings fall into.

That's why if I were into the genre, I wouldn't own anything related to a planar magnetic.

If you ask me, something with restricted HF, plenty of mid range warmth and a nicely coloured tone with respect to strings is what I would want. Something that can cope with shit recordings from many decades ago and present it in an OK manner no matter what it is, is what I would want.

That said, excellent classical recordings will shine on Apogees. They are just few and far between and that makes a high performance, uncoloured loudspeaker a very bad choice.

Snell Type A or An/E is what I might go for as a classical music dreamer. Or vintage Tannoys. Or even Jerry's MBL 116Fs. They are kind enough to do well.

Don't get me wrong we had a good time. After Jerry left, I swapped those Accuphase M-60s you thought sounded as dry as a shit back in for a week.

I had those serviced and re-biased to spec a while ago by Firebottle. Not the same amps after that. They sound a lot more linear now to my ears. Very good amps irrespective of price and the year of build of 1975. But despite being able to dump over half a KW into Duettas, they will and do overheat very quickly when you let them do it.

SS amps that are designed to run at high power in class A, with a higher class A/B output when called for do well with Duettas. But I reckon more than 300 Watts starts to approach max. loudness capability of this mid range Apogee. Even when very well built at the best 2022 can do on the basic original spec.
 

christoph

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2015
4,659
4,058
825
Principality of Liechtenstein
This is very interesting to me.

Would you please give us your sonic impressions of the Lamm hybrid versus the KRs? Why do you prefer the KRs?

Thank you.
I find my KR SETs more transparent and more alive/liquid and more palpable than my Lamm M 1.1 hybrids on the Apogee Studio Grands and and on my several horn speakers.

It sounds like my SETs CAN handle the Apogee Studio Grands (that are the easiest to drive Apogee!) and are NOT underdriving them ;)

On my Acoustats on the other hand, I slightly prefer my Lamm M1.1 hybrids over the 30 Watt KR VA 350.
I haven't tried the 50 Watt KR Kronzilla on the Acoustats and those maybe even might tip the scales again towards SET :D

On my (ex-)Apogee Scintillas, I haven't heard a better sounding amp than the Lamm hybrids and I REALLY have tried a LOT of different amps especially for the Scinnies (the hardest to drive Apogee model!!!) :eek:

My personal takeaway is that IF SET can handle the speaker in question, I usually prefer SET over other topologies :cool:
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,443
13,472
2,710
London
Jerry the MBL dude came round a couple of months ago. You know him you've been to see him.

He started playing some seriously average classical recordings.

I have to say I actively hate classical music on Apogees. They cannot flatter it. They just expose how average to poor so many classical recordings fall into.

That's why if I were into the genre, I wouldn't own anything related to a planar magnetic.

If you ask me, something with restricted HF, plenty of mid range warmth and a nicely coloured tone with respect to strings is what I would want. Something that can cope with shit recordings from many decades ago and present it in an OK manner no matter what it is, is what I would want.

That said, excellent classical recordings will shine on Apogees. They are just few and far between and that makes a high performance, uncoloured loudspeaker a very bad choice.

Snell Type A or An/E is what I might go for as a classical music dreamer. Or vintage Tannoys. Or even Jerry's MBL 116Fs. They are kind enough to do well.

Don't get me wrong we had a good time. After Jerry left, I swapped those Accuphase M-60s you thought sounded as dry as a shit back in for a week.

I had those serviced and re-biased to spec a while ago by Firebottle. Not the same amps after that. They sound a lot more linear now to my ears. Very good amps irrespective of price and the year of build of 1975. But despite being able to dump over half a KW into Duettas, they will and do overheat very quickly when you let them do it.

SS amps that are designed to run at high power in class A, with a higher class A/B output when called for do well with Duettas. But I reckon more than 300 Watts starts to approach max. loudness capability of this mid range Apogee. Even when very well built at the best 2022 can do on the basic original spec.

Justin has now moved from 211 to a big zero????
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,346
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
I find my KR SETs more transparent and more alive/liquid and more palpable than my Lamm M 1.1 hybrids on the Apogee Studio Grands and and on my several horn speakers.

It sounds like my SETs CAN handle the Apogee Studio Grands (that are the easiest to drive Apogee!) and are NOT underdriving them ;)

On my Acoustats on the other hand, I slightly prefer my Lamm M1.1 hybrids over the 30 Watt KR VA 350.
I haven't tried the 50 Watt KR Kronzilla on the Acoustats and those maybe even might tip the scales again towards SET :D

On my (ex-)Apogee Scintillas, I haven't heard a better sounding amp than the Lamm hybrids and I REALLY have tried a LOT of different amps especially for the Scinnies (the hardest to drive Apogee model!!!) :eek:

My personal takeaway is that IF SET can handle the speaker in question, I usually prefer SET over other topologies :cool:
Thank you very much for your detailed explanation!
 
  • Like
Reactions: christoph

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,443
13,472
2,710
London

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,605
5,413
1,278
E. England
  • Like
Reactions: christoph

oeno

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2014
42
60
323
I’m wondering if the fact that they are Duetta Ultimate rebuilds would impact their efficiency? Has anyone compared the efficiency of original Signatures to the newer rebuilds? Perhaps I’m grasping at straws here….
My pair of Apogee Duetta Sigs—entirely and impressively redone by Jon Oakey following Justin’s spec—are about 87db efficient, according to Jon. Magnets were not redone, but I gained maybe a db.

After the rebuild, not satisfied with how higher frequencies were handled my room, I entirely redid the crossover (again, similar to Justin, who was of immense help to me), both design and parts. That effectively gave me new speakers.

Now, running a pair of Parasound JC1+s and a Rossi L2 with Taka 300bs, the sound is entirely a pleasure, with no weak spots that I can tell. As for classical music not shining on Duettas, nothing could be further from the truth in my set-up. Of course that might have something to with my analogue front end: DaVa FC, SUT and tube psu, and Rada Precious One silver version….

And no classical lps do not have to be seventh wonders of the analogue world to sound magnificent on my Duettas.

For the record, other than owning various Maggies and a pair of Apogee Stages long ago, I have not heard Divas or Grands or Scintillas….so can make no comparisons there.
 

Zero000

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2014
2,985
1,139
478
My pair of Apogee Duetta Sigs—entirely and impressively redone by Jon Oakey following Justin’s spec—are about 87db efficient, according to Jon. Magnets were not redone, but I gained maybe a db.

After the rebuild, not satisfied with how higher frequencies were handled my room, I entirely redid the crossover (again, similar to Justin, who was of immense help to me), both design and parts. That effectively gave me new speakers.

Now, running a pair of Parasound JC1+s and a Rossi L2 with Taka 300bs, the sound is entirely a pleasure, with no weak spots that I can tell. As for classical music not shining on Duettas, nothing could be further from the truth in my set-up. Of course that might have something to with my analogue front end: DaVa FC, SUT and tube psu, and Rada Precious One silver version….

And no classical lps do not have to be seventh wonders of the analogue world to sound magnificent on my Duettas.

For the record, other than owning various Maggies and a pair of Apogee Stages long ago, I have not heard Divas or Grands or Scintillas….so can make no comparisons there.
Thanks.

Everyone's experience is different, but I never did like classical anyway, and as I said they will sound great with great recordings no matter what the genre.

Alan, what you can't appreciate because you never knew the difference is those bass clamps you have.

You are very lucky. Trust me. That upgrade was massive.
 

heihei

VIP/Donor
Jul 24, 2017
466
538
283
I spent some time yesterday listening to my first pair of Apogees. These were updated Divas, with drivers redone by True Sound Works and the crossovers redone by Reality. The rest of the system was Gryphon Mephisto, SMc VRE-1 pre, and either MSB DAC V / transport or SME 20 / DS Audio (analogue was superior to digital).

It was a really interesting experience and a lot to like in terms of the presentation of the music - it feels like a proper sound stage in the true sense of the word stage, i.e. musicians playing on a platform, as compared to cones which can often feel the music is being pushed towards you. The ability to carve a space for individual instruments was impressive, especially for background instruments or backing singers.
The linearity of the sound was also impressive - listening to instruments going up and down their registers gave a very even timbre and tonal colour.
Bass was very good - particularly the percussive leading edge of things like bass guitar. Plenty of impact too.

My main criticism was that there was sometimes a hard edge to the sound, particularly around female vocals, although clearly this could be a system & room issue rather than speaker-specific. It's also worth noting these were not set up in an optimal position given room constraints (the host is currently selling the speakers on behalf of someone else; he normally uses Scintillas). That said, in the almost 4 hours of listening, I didn't feel any listening fatigue.

Returning to my own system, it's interesting to hear how close the Wilson Benesch Resolutions get to some of the qualities noted above. They don't quite disappear into the soundstage to the same extent, but the sense of music flowing rather than being forced and coherence across the drivers is notable, and in fact were reasons I chose them originally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: christoph

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Hi Heihei,

Good to read...thanks for posting. That would be an interesting system to hear. Coming back to your system...what has the Torus done for your Wilson Benesch Resolutions?
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,987
978
Switzerland
I spent some time yesterday listening to my first pair of Apogees. These were updated Divas, with drivers redone by True Sound Works and the crossovers redone by Reality. The rest of the system was Gryphon Mephisto, SMc VRE-1 pre, and either MSB DAC V / transport or SME 20 / DS Audio (analogue was superior to digital).

It was a really interesting experience and a lot to like in terms of the presentation of the music - it feels like a proper sound stage in the true sense of the word stage, i.e. musicians playing on a platform, as compared to cones which can often feel the music is being pushed towards you. The ability to carve a space for individual instruments was impressive, especially for background instruments or backing singers.
The linearity of the sound was also impressive - listening to instruments going up and down their registers gave a very even timbre and tonal colour.
Bass was very good - particularly the percussive leading edge of things like bass guitar. Plenty of impact too.

My main criticism was that there was sometimes a hard edge to the sound, particularly around female vocals, although clearly this could be a system & room issue rather than speaker-specific. It's also worth noting these were not set up in an optimal position given room constraints (the host is currently selling the speakers on behalf of someone else; he normally uses Scintillas). That said, in the almost 4 hours of listening, I didn't feel any listening fatigue.

Returning to my own system, it's interesting to hear how close the Wilson Benesch Resolutions get to some of the qualities noted above. They don't quite disappear into the soundstage to the same extent, but the sense of music flowing rather than being forced and coherence across the drivers is notable, and in fact were reasons I chose them originally.
It was the electronics that gave the edge...don't blame the messenger!
 

heihei

VIP/Donor
Jul 24, 2017
466
538
283
Hi Heihei,

Good to read...thanks for posting. That would be an interesting system to hear. Coming back to your system...what has the Torus done for your Wilson Benesch Resolutions?
Four benefits as I hear it, ranked from obvious to less obvious rather than by benefit:
(1) lower frequency extension
(2) adds impact to the bass - WB speakers use multiple small cones for bass which in my experience gives less bass impact so the improvement here is quite noticeable
(3) creates more air around the soundstage - not sure why this is, but others report similar with using subs
(4) gives greater flexibility to tune bass response to the room - at the moment, I'm taking in output from the pre to a miniDSP unit into which I've programmed a custom crossover based on REW measurements, then into a pair of class-D monos to power the subs. This gives a flatter bass response, albeit with the downside of A-D-A conversion with a $200 box

Main negative is the complexity it adds to a system.
 

heihei

VIP/Donor
Jul 24, 2017
466
538
283
It was the electronics that gave the edge...don't blame the messenger!
Ha - I have pondered this a lot. Hard to think it was the Mephisto given its class-A operation. I know nothing about SMC pre-amps, so could be them. It was def more noticeable on the digital, so would be the obvious culprit, but not completely absent on the analogue. As such, has left me scratching my head a bit!
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,443
13,472
2,710
London
I have heard that system with previous AR amps and that apogee is just not good.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: christoph

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,987
978
Switzerland
Ha - I have pondered this a lot. Hard to think it was the Mephisto given its class-A operation. I know nothing about SMC pre-amps, so could be them. It was def more noticeable on the digital, so would be the obvious culprit, but not completely absent on the analogue. As such, has left me scratching my head a bit!
Hi, I have heard a number of Divas, but not this particular one and as it was modified, I guess something could be wrong withe speaker. I have heard Divas with numerous amps and with SS amps (class A and AB) they could have the edge you describe...not always but often. A good hybrid amp or good PP triode amp or powerful SET never had this edge. YMMV....
 
  • Like
Reactions: christoph

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing