Anti Skating?

[J.R. Boisclair]

Actually, They hired you and bought your kit so that they can see how it relates to what you’re doing.

In younger days I served as an associate technical editor for Kinematics, Dynamics, and Design professional journals.


Two things. First, they’re listening and buying in order to understand how what you’re doing relates to their approach.

Second, in a racing vehicle, which is equivalent to a high end TT, alignment is not cut and dried as you assume. There are compromises that must be made. And the suggested setting is a starting point for experiments

FWIW, I have served as an editor and have published in US and International professional journals for kinematics, dynamics, and mechanical design. I’ve supervised several doctoral dissertations in these areas. I do understand the physical issues.

May I respectfully suggest that you prepare a technical counter to my claims so that we can have something to discuss? I'm not sure the argument from authority approach will offer that to us. I have no doubt you are a qualified person. I just am having trouble understanding your complaint about the approach as I've laid out.

*It seems* that you'd rather not do the measurements and simply trust your ears with respect to anti-skating. My point was that the analog playback environment is a multivariate one and any change to one parameter will impact others so what are you really hearing and impacting and how can you know that improving one thing didn't cause a slight deterioration elsewhere? The highly consistent feedback I've received from many, many customers and clients suggests I'm on to something with regards to use of the WallySkater.

Seriously, I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just trying to understand your resistance. Given your professional background, I'm interested to know.

 

[Kingrex]

Second, in a racing vehicle, which is equivalent to a high end TT, alignment is not cut and dried as you assume. There are compromises that must be made. And the suggested setting is a starting point for experiments

What's your point. Do you interpret JR as saying anything other than you need tools designed for the purpose to get to a known starting point, then tune by ear all you want?

 

[Kingrex]

FWIW, I’ve got a 250 power Leica microscope and a good light source. My stylus wear has been symmetric over many cartridges over many decades. The Linn Ittok and Ekos SE arms are a joy.

Digital Microscopes | KEYENCE America

KEYENCE is a leader in digital microscopes used for a broad range of industrial and scientific applications. Click here to learn more.

www.keyence.com

These people make good microscope that image clear at high power. I would be interested to see what your Leica can do. I have seen one shop show me what he looks for with his microscope. Its not so much the actual diamond as the flash of light off the diamond that indicates the wear.

Dereneville

Dereneville by AVDesignhaus

www.dereneville.de

That looks pretty cool. I cant read the copy but it looks nice.
I sometimes think of a pivoted arm, but I worry about all the bearings and how they could bind and cause forces you don't want.
Then I wonder, where is the biggest bang for the buck. What makes an arm sing.

 

[DasguteOhr]

"compare both versions and hear if the result is better" - be very careful here. When you change arms you are tossing into the air MANY variables that will affect the outcome of your experiment. I will write a blog article one day about how to control variables in analog when you wish to assess ONE factor. It is NOT EASY and requires preparation to get a truly honest result.

For example, I recently prepared blind test of two new cartridges where the only physical differences between the two cartridges was the cosmetic coating on the body and the stylus/cantilever assembly. It took me a full day to prepare for this test so that I could know for sure that we would be hearing changes ONLY in that which we wished to assess.

Yes blind test a difficult best to do with several people. a one pair ears can be wrong, many ears rarely.

on the topic of bearing the tonearms.the alphason hr 100s, a masterpeace in bulid. a test magazine tested the breakaway weight of tonearm bearings and it was the best. one piece titanium tube, stainless bearing house cearmic bearing. Unfortunately, most of the used tonearms offered have defective bearings and very sensitive.there are no replacement bearings.

 

[Zeotrope]

May I respectfully suggest that you prepare a technical counter to my claims so that we can have something to discuss? I'm not sure the argument from authority approach will offer that to us. I have no doubt you are a qualified person. I just am having trouble understanding your complaint about the approach as I've laid out.

*It seems* that you'd rather not do the measurements and simply trust your ears with respect to anti-skating. My point was that the analog playback environment is a multivariate one and any change to one parameter will impact others so what are you really hearing and impacting and how can you know that improving one thing didn't cause a slight deterioration elsewhere? The highly consistent feedback I've received from many, many customers and clients suggests I'm on to something with regards to use of the WallySkater.

Seriously, I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just trying to understand your resistance. Given your professional background, I'm interested to know.

The two approaches: measure by ear vs by instrument, really speak to the philosophy of the owner. There’s no “best” approach other than what’s best for you.
In my humble opinion, it all comes down to listening. I also want to understand how each variable (AS, VTF, etc) affects the sound. I don’t want to trust a tool, when possible. I do own a Wally microscope because I can’t see at 100X (or whatever it is - I actually have never used it!).

A multi variable problem is solved not by optimizing one variable at a time. Actually, you are almost certain to not find the optimal solution if you try to optimize one variable at a time Keep that in mind.
Everything we do with vinyl is an approximation anyway, and more art than science. But that’s my view.

Anti-skate is easy to adjust by ear. I would rather trust my ears, not a tool (as good as that tool may be!).

 

[Zeotrope]

There are a number of common misconceptions when we talk about Antiskating, Channel Balance, and Azimuth. I've seen quite a few "experts" use these terms interchangeably. This helped me, hopefully it will help some of you:

AZIMUTH - does NOT affect channel balance, it affects Crosstalk. Channel balance is technically something altogether different. Crosstalk is hearing a signal in one channel that was meant for the other channel, or signal leakage from one channel to another.
The best way to check for this, other than looking at the cartridge cantilever with a magnification aid is to play a test LP that's recorded with only L channel content, and only R channel content. Put your ear up to the speaker where there should be no signal, at listening levels. On the L channel only track, you should not hear anything in the R channel. A device like the Fozgometer can also do this, but it's not necessary.

ANTISKATE - affects distortion in the L and R channels. It also does not affect channel balance. Yes, you will hear more distortion in one channel than the other if AS is not set correctly, but this is not a balance control. AS, as we know, changes from record to record and during playback. It will never be perfect. It's very easy to set by ear:
- remove all AS
- playback a solo voice that is centered, ideally a mono track in stereo
- Add AS a little at a time until the voice becomes focused and sibilance (or high notes) do not drift to one channel
If you are hearing distortion in the R channel, this likely means that you do not have sufficient AS! This seems wrong, but the reason is that if the R channel is improperly loaded (because of too little AS) it can distort. If you start with 0 AS and add AS, you don't have to remember this.
It is easy to hear small changes in AS when listening carefully. It doesn't have to be perfect because it's only perfect for 1 album at 1 time; but when you have it close, it makes a big difference!

BALANCE - this is simply the sound level at which the L and R channels play. No cartridge is perfectly balanced. No preamp nor amp is perfectly balanced. If you add the channel imbalances from cartridge + phono stage + preamp + amp, it's easy to get 1dB or more imbalance. This should only be corrected with the balance dial on the preamp, or by replacing the component(s). If you start to mess with Azimuth or Antiskate, that's a mistake!

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Gregadd]

yes, it is. in my old age i have time to actually check the definition of words and terms i thought i understood. amazing how many times i was slightly off.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

The two approaches: measure by ear vs by instrument, really speak to the philosophy of the owner. There’s no “best” approach other than what’s best for you.
In my humble opinion, it all comes down to listening. I also want to understand how each variable (AS, VTF, etc) affects the sound. I don’t want to trust a tool, when possible. I do own a Wally microscope because I can’t see at 100X (or whatever it is - I actually have never used it!).

A multi variable problem is solved not by optimizing one variable at a time. Actually, you are almost certain to not find the optimal solution if you try to optimize one variable at a time Keep that in mind.
Everything we do with vinyl is an approximation anyway, and more art than science. But that’s my view.

Anti-skate is easy to adjust by ear. I would rather trust my ears, not a tool (as good as that tool may be!).

Since it is a mechanical system and we know the conditions in which the original groove was cut, there is a known target for each of the 7 alignment parameters. Of those 7 parameters, only three of them offer ideal ranges and those ranges are pretty tight, all things considered.

It certainly is a multivariate environment, as you say, but each target can be dialed in independently other than azimuth, which must be the last parameter to dial in because of that very fact.

So, let's just agree to disagree, eh?

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

There are a number of common misconceptions when we talk about Antiskating, Channel Balance, and Azimuth. I've seen quite a few "experts" use these terms interchangeably. This helped me, hopefully it will help some of you:

AZIMUTH - does NOT affect channel balance, it affects Crosstalk. Channel balance is technically something altogether different. Crosstalk is hearing a signal in one channel that was meant for the other channel, or signal leakage from one channel to another.
The best way to check for this, other than looking at the cartridge cantilever with a magnification aid is to play a test LP that's recorded with only L channel content, and only R channel content. Put your ear up to the speaker where there should be no signal, at listening levels. On the L channel only track, you should not hear anything in the R channel. A device like the Fozgometer can also do this, but it's not necessary.

ANTISKATE - affects distortion in the L and R channels. It also does not affect channel balance. Yes, you will hear more distortion in one channel than the other if AS is not set correctly, but this is not a balance control. AS, as we know, changes from record to record and during playback. It will never be perfect. It's very easy to set by ear:
- remove all AS
- playback a solo voice that is centered, ideally a mono track in stereo
- Add AS a little at a time until the voice becomes focused and sibilance (or high notes) do not drift to one channel
If you are hearing distortion in the R channel, this likely means that you do not have sufficient AS! This seems wrong, but the reason is that if the R channel is improperly loaded (because of too little AS) it can distort. If you start with 0 AS and add AS, you don't have to remember this.
It is easy to hear small changes in AS when listening carefully. It doesn't have to be perfect because it's only perfect for 1 album at 1 time; but when you have it close, it makes a big difference!

BALANCE - this is simply the sound level at which the L and R channels play. No cartridge is perfectly balanced. No preamp nor amp is perfectly balanced. If you add the channel imbalances from cartridge + phono stage + preamp + amp, it's easy to get 1dB or more imbalance. This should only be corrected with the balance dial on the preamp, or by replacing the component(s). If you start to mess with Azimuth or Antiskate, that's a mistake!

Hope this is helpful.

Actually, changing azimuth does impact channel balance - usually +/-0.5dB in the typical azimuth angular ranges we work in but we have seen as much as 2dB of channel difference during the process of finding maximum channel separation. We see this change to channel balance on a daily basis on our test bench. However - and probably to your point - equal channel balance is FREQUENTLY not at the same angular position on the azimuth as is the ideal azimuth angle at which you will have maximum channel separation, which is why adjusting your azimuth angle to find optimal channel balance is not at all a reliable process.

Anti-skate only affects distortion patterns on the L and R channels once it is pretty FAR away from the targeted force (e.g., 11% of VTF for 9" arms). Therefore, dialing in anti-skate using distortion patterns is to coarse of an approach to get the cartridge damper in its most relaxed state.

You are 100% correct on your third point regarding balance.

 

[Zeotrope]

I guess it depends on the turntable. I find that even small adjustments to AS are easily heard.

The point I was trying to make regarding Azimuth and Balance is that if your soundstage is shifted to the right, let's say, you should not assume it's caused by an azimuth issue. If it's due to azimuth, that means crosstalk is audible. Audible crosstalk means that you are getting the same signal through both channels. I can see how Azimuth being off may lead one to think that Balance is off, and I guess that's true if you are hearing more signal through one channel than the other; but the root causes are very different.

If you test for Azimuth by listening, you don't want to use the tracks you use to test for AS. You want tracks where the L and R channels are different. If you don't do this, for example by listening to a centered vocalist, you will easily be confused into thinking that an imbalance is due to azimuth. It could be, or it could just be due to a L/R channel level mismatch.

Balance is actually never perfect. I don't think any playback system will have perfectly equal balance. Looking at a review of my DarTZeel pre, that has channel (im-)balance of 0.2dB. My cartridge balance is off by 0.2dB. I think both are considered reference level numbers. Assuming they are both off in the same channel, that's a total imbalance of 0.4dB. Plus the phono stage and the amp will not be perfect, and neither will the speaker drivers. I can hear a channel imbalance of 0.5dB. If your system is setup correctly, you can hear the soundstage shift even with 0.5dB.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

Balance is actually never perfect.

I agree and, within the ranges you are talking about, it is not something worth worrying over.

 

[Kingrex]

The two approaches: measure by ear vs by instrument, really speak to the philosophy of the owner. There’s no “best” approach other than what’s best for you.

Everything we do with vinyl is an approximation anyway, and more art than science. But that’s my view.

I can't see these comments as anything other than Trolling. They are so inaccurate.

 

[DasguteOhr]

There are a number of common misconceptions when we talk about Antiskating, Channel Balance, and Azimuth. I've seen quite a few "experts" use these terms interchangeably. This helped me, hopefully it will help some of you:

AZIMUTH - does NOT affect channel balance, it affects Crosstalk. Channel balance is technically something altogether different. Crosstalk is hearing a signal in one channel that was meant for the other channel, or signal leakage from one channel to another.
The best way to check for this, other than looking at the cartridge cantilever with a magnification aid is to play a test LP that's recorded with only L channel content, and only R channel content. Put your ear up to the speaker where there should be no signal, at listening levels. On the L channel only track, you should not hear anything in the R channel. A device like the Fozgometer can also do this, but it's not necessary.

ANTISKATE - affects distortion in the L and R channels. It also does not affect channel balance. Yes, you will hear more distortion in one channel than the other if AS is not set correctly, but this is not a balance control. AS, as we know, changes from record to record and during playback. It will never be perfect. It's very easy to set by ear:
- remove all AS
- playback a solo voice that is centered, ideally a mono track in stereo
- Add AS a little at a time until the voice becomes focused and sibilance (or high notes) do not drift to one channel
If you are hearing distortion in the R channel, this likely means that you do not have sufficient AS! This seems wrong, but the reason is that if the R channel is improperly loaded (because of too little AS) it can distort. If you start with 0 AS and add AS, you don't have to remember this.
It is easy to hear small changes in AS when listening carefully. It doesn't have to be perfect because it's only perfect for 1 album at 1 time; but when you have it close, it makes a big difference!

BALANCE - this is simply the sound level at which the L and R channels play. No cartridge is perfectly balanced. No preamp nor amp is perfectly balanced. If you add the channel imbalances from cartridge + phono stage + preamp + amp, it's easy to get 1dB or more imbalance. This should only be corrected with the balance dial on the preamp, or by replacing the component(s). If you start to mess with Azimuth or Antiskate, that's a mistake!

Hope this is helpful.

Correct azimuth, use a 1khz tone testrecord no infleunce from riaa phonoamp.preferably an lp where the test tones are close to the set zero points of the tonearm. there you have the least distortion. if you did it well, the crosstalk looks something like this.
Crosstalk L-R
Mono signal both chanels
good synchronization
phase angle of the two channels not yet perfect the gap between the two sinusoids L-R so align the cantilever even more perfectly straight to the groove.
Antiskate allways by ears pay attention to the focus of the voice in the middle of the stereo. the narrower it looks, the better the result.

 

[Zeotrope]

I can't see these comments as anything other than Trolling. They are so inaccurate.

Hahaha, I needed a laugh. “Trolling” in a thread called “antiskate” when this is the best way to set it? You know very little, clearly.
Most of your comments here are nonsense. +1 to ignore list. Don’t have time for non-value added moronic comments.

 

[Zeotrope]

Correct azimuth, use a 1khz tone testrecord no infleunce from riaa phonoamp.preferably an lp where the test tones are close to the set zero points of the tonearm. there you have the least distortion. if you did it well, the crosstalk looks something like this.
Crosstalk L-R View attachment 109551
Mono signal both chanels
good synchronization View attachment 109552
phase angle of the two channels not yet perfect the gap between the two sinusoids L-R so align the cantilever even more perfectly straight to the groove. View attachment 109553
Antiskate allways by ears pay attention to the focus of the voice in the middle of the stereo. the narrower it looks, the better the result.

Very interesting, thanks. I especially like how you framed the AS as “focus” of a centered voice. The voice does lose focus and get “taller” as you deviate from the optimal setting. It’s very easy to hear this and a small change in AS makes a difference. Perhaps not on all turntables, although I’ve had low, medium, and high priced TTs and all had easily audible changes to AS.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Very interesting, thanks. I especially like how you framed the AS as “focus” of a centered voice. The voice does lose focus and get “taller” as you deviate from the optimal setting. It’s very easy to hear this and a small change in AS makes a difference. Perhaps not on all turntables, although I’ve had low, medium, and high priced TTs and all had easily audible changes to AS.

my pleasure
I recommend something like this for the measurement. an oscilloscope and multimeter in one. you can always use it, if you can install a cartridge and own a test lp 1khz, you can get such a measurement for a reasonable price. is not rocket science.

OWON LCD-Oszilloskop mit Multimeter, HDS242, 2-Kanal, 40 MHz 4049702681502 | eBay

Marke: OWON. Gewicht (ohne Batterien): ca. 0,6 kg. Oszilloskop (ohne Akkus). Widerstand: 200 Ω/2 kΩ/20 kΩ/200 kΩ/2 MΩ ±(0,8 % + 3 digits), 20 MΩ ±(1 % + 3 digits), 100 MΩ ±(3 % + 3 digits). Bandbreite: 40 MHz.

www.ebay.de

For vtf setting works pretty too.Increase to the greatest possible signal power by adjusting the tracking force. The greatest amplitude means the greatest dynamics. Whether you like the sound is a matter of personal taste.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I have had good results checking the set-up of my MSL Eminent Ex with my Kuzma 4Point 11" arm with the AnalogMagik software and disks which I used last week for the first time.

Only thing that didn't read so well was the cartridge and tonearm resonance with the AnalogMagik recommending a peak frequency reading of 8 to 12Hz range, and I was getting a range from lowest 8 to highest 16.5Hz (although Kuzma on their online info say up to 20Hz is ok).

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I have had good results checking the set-up of my MSL Eminent Ex with my Kuzma 4Point 11" arm with the AnalogMagik software and disks which I used last week for the first time.

Only thing that didn't read so well was the cartridge and tonearm resonance with the AnalogMagik recommending a peak frequency reading of 8 to 12Hz range, and I was getting a range from lowest 8 to highest 16.5Hz (although Kuzma on their online info say up to 20Hz is ok).

I found using the AnalogMagik software and test records that with the Kuzma 4Point 11" arm, changing the anti skate from min to Kuzma recommended to max with my MSL Eminent Ex cartridge made little difference to the AnalogMagik readings.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I found using the AnalogMagik software and test records that with the Kuzma 4Point 11" arm, changing the anti skate from min to Kuzma recommended to max with my MSL Eminent Ex cartridge made little difference to the AnalogMagik readings.

The AnalogMagik anti skate I measured were 0.4439% for the THD (left) and 0.5326% for the THD (right) (difference of 0.0887%) i.e. well within the range for a good THD reading of less than 1% (according to AnalogMagik) and L / R channel difference is less than 0.2% (according to AnalogMagik.

 

[Zeotrope]

I found using the AnalogMagik software and test records that with the Kuzma 4Point 11" arm, changing the anti skate from min to Kuzma recommended to max with my MSL Eminent Ex cartridge made little difference to the AnalogMagik readings.

That’s interesting. Perhaps this points to flaws in any tool - they are not perfect. No tool is error-free, either from sample to sample, or inherent in the design. Not saying the ear is perfect either, but if you like the sound, that’s all that matters.

I do like the AnalogMagik principle of using a PC to compute the distortion, etc. But it’s clearly built to a price point (how much distortion does the sound card add?), and in my case I can’t use it because I don’t have a separate phono stage (for now).