Anti Skating?

[Kingrex]

@J.R. Boisclair
How many issues does a linear tracking arm resolve.

Does a linear tracking arm create issues.

Do pivoting arms have fatal flaws that can not, or have not been overcome at this time.

 

[DasguteOhr]

MYTH #6: My arm sounds better without anti-skating applied
My first thought whenever I hear this is, "Did you control for the variables that can influence the horizontal behavior of the tonearm BEFORE coming to that conclusion?" I usually get a blank stare at that question.

What do I mean? A frequently encountered example:
I have been to many people's homes who claimed their arm sounds better without anti-skating force applied. In every case, THEY WERE RIGHT. However, they were right about what matters (the sound) but ascribed the basis of their claim to the wrong thing (the anti-skate mechanism). In every case, these fellows' tonearms had their own horizontal torque forces generating as much as, or more than, the required anti-skate force necessary WITHOUT EVEN ENGAGING THE ANTI-SKATE DEVICE. So, of course, when they would engage the anti-skate mechanism the arm would start mistracking or skipping or at least sounded more "closed-in" and robbed of life. They did not know their arm had a significant internal horizontal torque force doing the anti-skating job for them in the first place.

So, for those who say their arm sounds better without vs with anti-skating applied, they probably already have it applied by the arm itself without knowing it. Of course, in these situations you can be nearly certain that at the time of their cantilever alignment they messed things up pretty badly. Why? Since they did not know that horizontal torque force was present at the time of cantilever alignment the horizontal torque force generated on the cantilever by the arm would have skewed it visually and made it to LOOK like they needed to revolve the cartridge counterclockwise to align properly but...you know how the story goes, I hope!

I'll stop here, but there are many more I could cover that I've wrote and discussed on before such as the test record approach, blank record approach, etc.

Guys, I really hope I'm not coming off as mean spirited, but we have ALL been sold a bad bill of goods by clueless manufacturers and reviewers on this issue for years. Don't buy a WallySkater for these measurements. That's fine. I’m not trying to sell them on you by way of this post. JUST BE WELL INFORMED. Isn't that why we come here?

Myth 6 #
What do you say to people who have non-antiskating tonearms? for example Schick or Ortofon RMG 309. Should they build an anti-skate device or throw away the tonearm? A little joke. I could keep a long list of tonearms.
But I know they both sound great even without anti-skating. I have had both here at home.I don't want to fight over words with you. I'm just interested in the answer. I'm curious

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

@J.R. Boisclair
How many issues does a linear tracking arm resolve.

Does a linear tracking arm create issues.

Do pivoting arms have fatal flaws that can not, or have not been overcome at this time.

Hey Rex!

Tangential bearing arms (these are the non-pivoted variety) eliminate skating force and tracking error. They do NOT eliminate tracing error (function of zenith error).

Pivoted tangential tonearms - Those that have a moving pivot point tend to all eliminate skating force. Arms with a pivoted headshell do NOT eliminate skating force. In fact, they exhibit skating in both directions (inwards and outwards) depending upon the position of the tonearm on the record surface. At the point of greatest skating force (extreme limits of modulated groove) the skating force is between 40-50% of what a similar length normal pivoted tonearm would be, so skating is decreased quite a lot, but not eliminated. This, however, does not mean you can dismiss the need for anti-skating because of the 6:1 lever arm force at the coil damper is a force multiplier that really adds up to a big difference on the damper behavior with even a small amount of skating force as a % of VTF.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

Myth 6 #
What do you say to people who have non-antiskating tonearms? for example Schick or Ortofon RMG 309. Should they build an anti-skate device or throw away the tonearm? A little joke. I could keep a long list of tonearms.
But I know they both sound great even without anti-skating. I have had both here at home.I don't want to fight over words with you. I'm just interested in the answer. I'm curious

If an arm was designed without anti-skating mechanism, it doesn't make it worthless! It only means that it COULD allow the cartridge to perform even better if it did. It also means you can look forward to an earlier death of your stylus contact edge. Left channel will go quickly.

If the arm was designed with no anti-skate mechanism but had its own internal torque either built in deliberately or by chance, then you can be almost assured your cantilever was aligned improperly.

I would say to anyone with such an arm that it is generally not difficult to make your own weight and string anti-skate device but you need to be careful of where the string attaches to the arm and the manner with which the vertical and horizontal angles the string extend from the arm junction point to the hangar. You don't want to introduce vector forces that change VTF, for example.

I am not one of those people who will say if you don't do so and so or use such and such that your sound is no good. I could not possibly know this. I am saying - and always say - that there are some very fundamental principles of mechanics that, when adhered to, will make what you have SOUND EVEN BETTER.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thanks for answer, newer tonearms from schick have antiskating now.
maybe I should compare both versions and hear if the result is better. I can only recommend the tonearm, whether with an ortofon spu or a lyra etna. highly recommended.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

Thanks for answer, newer tonearms from schick have antiskating now.
maybe I should compare both versions and hear if the result is better. I can only recommend the tonearm, whether with an ortofon spu or a lyra etna. highly recommended.View attachment 109432

"compare both versions and hear if the result is better" - be very careful here. When you change arms you are tossing into the air MANY variables that will affect the outcome of your experiment. I will write a blog article one day about how to control variables in analog when you wish to assess ONE factor. It is NOT EASY and requires preparation to get a truly honest result.

For example, I recently prepared blind test of two new cartridges where the only physical differences between the two cartridges was the cosmetic coating on the body and the stylus/cantilever assembly. It took me a full day to prepare for this test so that I could know for sure that we would be hearing changes ONLY in that which we wished to assess.

 

[Another Johnson]

Setting anti-skating by ear is not the best approach as explained by other members but I’m sure there will be people continue to do that. I prefer to use tools to set anti-skating.

I measured anti skating force on my two SME V tonearms. What I did is an utterly primitive way and very far from being scientific. I just wanted to check it IOT see if bearings have any friction. Luckily there isn’t.
- 9” measured 0.19g at anti skating setting 2.
- 12” measured 0.16g at anti skating setting 2.

Actually the whole goal is to listen, so if someone thinks it not a good idea, you have to ponder a bit.

With the Linn arms, you set it as prescribed by the tracking force and the stylus profile. Then you listen and fine tune if you feel the need. It is a great system. Linn actually have real engineers on staff.

If this controversy, obfuscation, and caucus race didn’t exist, neither would the third party tweaks.

FWIW, I’ve got a 250 power Leica microscope and a good light source. My stylus wear has been symmetric over many cartridges over many decades. The Linn Ittok and Ekos SE arms are a joy.

 

[Kingrex]

Hey Rex!

Tangential bearing arms (these are the non-pivoted variety) eliminate skating force and tracking error. They do NOT eliminate tracing error (function of zenith error).

Pivoted tangential tonearms - Those that have a moving pivot point tend to all eliminate skating force. Arms with a pivoted headshell do NOT eliminate skating force. In fact, they exhibit skating in both directions (inwards and outwards) depending upon the position of the tonearm on the record surface. At the point of greatest skating force (extreme limits of modulated groove) the skating force is between 40-50% of what a similar length normal pivoted tonearm would be, so skating is decreased quite a lot, but not eliminated. This, however, does not mean you can dismiss the need for anti-skating because of the 6:1 lever arm force at the coil damper is a force multiplier that really adds up to a big difference on the damper behavior with even a small amount of skating force as a % of VTF.

You once told me a linear tracking arm has to have basically 0 tolerance between the beam and the assembly that rides on it. Otherwise the chatter will detract from the performance. It seems to me it would be very hard to design a beam and arm wand that flows without friction across the record and not chatter to some degree. Not unless it was laser guided. Then your laser better be very well calibrated. It seems to me without a motorized tracking system, even a linear tracking arm would only move in the groove by being pushed from the outside groove wall towards the inside. Otherwise it would sit in one spot and skip the groove.

 

[Solypsa]

. Not unless it was laser guided.

Dereneville

Dereneville by AVDesignhaus

www.dereneville.de

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

You once told me a linear tracking arm has to have basically 0 tolerance between the beam and the assembly that rides on it. Otherwise the chatter will detract from the performance. It seems to me it would be very hard to design a beam and arm wand that flows without friction across the record and not chatter to some degree. Not unless it was laser guided. Then your laser better be very well calibrated. It seems to me without a motorized tracking system, even a linear tracking arm would only move in the groove by being pushed from the outside groove wall towards the inside. Otherwise it would sit in one spot and skip the groove.

Linear bearings do fix a couple design issues and then create new ones. 6 degrees of freedom is the biggest issue they create. I don't like that...at all. I am not aware of a linear bearing design that is rigid enough to satisfy me. That doesn't mean there isn't one. I just don't know of it. All air bearings are immediately suspect. Dynamic fluid bearing would be less suspect but they don't exist, as far as I know.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

Actually the whole goal is to listen, so if someone thinks it not a good idea, you have to ponder a bit.

With the Linn arms, you set it as prescribed by the tracking force and the stylus profile. Then you listen and fine tune if you feel the need. It is a great system. Linn actually have real engineers on staff.

If this controversy, obfuscation, and caucus race didn’t exist, neither would the third party tweaks.

FWIW, I’ve got a 250 power Leica microscope and a good light source. My stylus wear has been symmetric over many cartridges over many decades. The Linn Ittok and Ekos SE arms are a joy.

I am aware Linn has engineers on the team. After hearing my seminar in the U.K., one of them bought a WallySkater from me for use in their tonearm R&D department. Linn is one of at least seven tonearm manufacturers that now use it to measure tonearm stiction and horizonal torque force in their tonearms.

This is no more of a "controversy" than is the debate about the Earth being flat. If one can prove a physical phenomenon exists and is measurable but much of the public persists in not understanding the facts, is it really a controversy or is it just a waste of time?

Of course the goal is to listen. I agree! However, you don't drive your car to determine whether your wheels are aligned, make an adjustment, drive again, adjust, drive and so on until you are satisfied. You just get them aligned by those with the right tools and you enjoy the improved results. Implementing proper anti-skating force is no different.

I invite you to provide any evidence to the contrary. I do NOT know everything and I am happy to learn and adjust my understanding as new information presents itself. The more I learn about the dynamics of vinyl playback, the more it humbles me. I am amazed at how many questions that pertain to the level of performance we can get from it that I don't have the answers to.

 

[mtemur]

Linear bearings do fix a couple design issues and then create new ones. 6 degrees of freedom is the biggest issue they create. I don't like that...at all. I am not aware of a linear bearing design that is rigid enough to satisfy me. That doesn't mean there isn't one. I just don't know of it. All air bearings are immediately suspect. Dynamic fluid bearing would be less suspect but they don't exist, as far as I know.

Additionally air bearings have air cushion which act as sponge that ruins dynamics in most cases.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

Additionally air bearings have air cushion which act as sponge that ruins dynamics in most cases.

Correct. The degree to which it is compliant is a function of how far off of center the bearing is within the concentric sleeve. It is quite "soft" close to its center and gets increasingly rigid the further it travels from the center. However, I submit you only need range shifts in the nanometer range to make an audible difference.

This is why the better designs of this type use very high pressure air flow and can measure the distance between the inner bearing and the outer sleeve in single digit micron range. I think Kuzma has a design with such traits.

 

[mtemur]

Linn actually have real engineers on staff.

So does other companies. Unlike much praised Ittok which is made in Japan SME arms are designed and made in England for example. Most tonearm manufacturing companies have great engineers. Having great engineers does not necessarily mean their anti-skating mechanism is perfect. Neither SME nor Linn is an exception.

 

[Another Johnson]

I am aware Linn has engineers on the team. After hearing my seminar in the U.K., one of them bought a WallySkater from me for use in their tonearm R&D department. Linn is one of at least seven tonearm manufacturers that now use it to measure tonearm stiction and horizonal torque force in their tonearms.

Actually, They hired you and bought your kit so that they can see how it relates to what you’re doing.

In younger days I served as an associate technical editor for Kinematics, Dynamics, and Design professional journals.

This is no more of a "controversy" than is the debate about the Earth being flat. If one can prove a physical phenomenon exists and is measurable but much of the public persists in not understanding the facts, is it really a controversy or is it just a waste of time?

Of course the goal is to listen. I agree! However, you don't drive your car to determine whether your wheels are aligned, make an adjustment, drive again, adjust, drive and so on until you are satisfied. You just get them aligned by those with the right tools and you enjoy the improved results.

I am aware Linn has engineers on the team. After hearing my seminar in the U.K., one of them bought a WallySkater from me for use in their tonearm R&D department. Linn is one of at least seven tonearm manufacturers that now use it to measure tonearm stiction and horizonal torque force in their tonearms.

This is no more of a "controversy" than is the debate about the Earth being flat. If one can prove a physical phenomenon exists and is measurable but much of the public persists in not understanding the facts, is it really a controversy or is it just a waste of time?

Of course the goal is to listen. I agree! However, you don't drive your car to determine whether your wheels are aligned, make an adjustment, drive again, adjust, drive and so on until you are satisfied. You just get them aligned by those with the right tools and you enjoy the improved results. Implementing proper anti-skating force is no different.

I invite you to provide any evidence to the contrary. I do NOT know everything and I am happy to learn and adjust my understanding as new information presents itself. The more I learn about the dynamics of vinyl playback, the more it humbles me. I am amazed at how many questions that pertain to the level of performance we can get from it that I don't have the answers to.

Two things. First, they’re listening and buying in order to understand how what you’re doing relates to their approach.

Second, in a racing vehicle, which is equivalent to a high end TT, alignment is not cut and dried as you assume. There are compromises that must be made. And the suggested setting is a starting point for experiments

FWIW, I have served as an editor and have published in US and International professional journals for kinematics, dynamics, and mechanical design. I’ve supervised several doctoral dissertations in these areas. I do understand the physical issues.

 

[mtemur]

Pivoted tangential tonearms - Those that have a moving pivot point tend to all eliminate skating force. Arms with a pivoted headshell do NOT eliminate skating force. In fact, they exhibit skating in both directions (inwards and outwards) depending upon the position of the tonearm on the record surface. At the point of greatest skating force (extreme limits of modulated groove) the skating force is between 40-50% of what a similar length normal pivoted tonearm would be, so skating is decreased quite a lot, but not eliminated. This, however, does not mean you can dismiss the need for anti-skating because of the 6:1 lever arm force at the coil damper is a force multiplier that really adds up to a big difference on the damper behavior with even a small amount of skating force as a % of VTF.

Please check this thread when you have time.

Klaudio’s Pivoted Linear Tangential Tonearm

I would like to introduce Klaudio’s Pivoted Linear Tangential Tonearm. It combines the advantages of the conventional pivot arm and linear tracking concepts. It simplifies installation, and allows for ideal setup using a wide range of cartridges. Users are aware of the benefits and issues with...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Another Johnson]

So does other companies. Unlike much praised Ittok which is made in Japan SME arms are designed and made in England for example. Most tonearm manufacturing companies have great engineers. Having great engineers does not necessarily mean their anti-skating mechanism is perfect. Neither SME nor Linn is an exception.

My experience is that most tonearm companies do not have great engineers. They have small shops with interested and mechanically capable principals and assistants.
SME would seem to be quite good, but I’ve never owned one. Last I checked, Linn were building the Ekos SE in the UK.

 

[mtemur]

Last I checked, Linn were building the Ekos SE in the UK.

Then I recommend you to check Ittok which made LP12 famous. It is made in Japan.

 

[Another Johnson]

Then I recommend you to check Ittok which made LP12 famous. It is made in Japan.

Don’t need to check. You are right about that one.

 

[Another Johnson]

This whole TT/Arm/Cartridge problem is a swamp created by the mechanics and machinists who dominate the third party arm industry.

It may be impossible to extricate oneself once firmly in the confusion.

I’m out. For many lost souls, ears and microscope aren’t enough to clarify and confirm. I can’t help.