Anyone here in the McIntosh forum, or elsewhere, own or have listened to the new McIntosh MCD12000 CD/SACD PLAYER?

[Charles S]

I don't do vinyl. I'm old and went through the early vinyl decades. I know that the vinyl of today is much improved but I have chosen CD's, SACD's, and high resolution downloads from HD Tracks through USB. I had initially thought that using the SS output of my MCD12000, then tube with the C-12000 and of course tube through my 3500 would be the way to go. And initially, it sounded better than my all tube configuration. What I didn't consider was that I had recently changed out my old EL509S output tubes to the new green EL509S's remanufactured by McIntosh. I got an hour meter and lo and behold the tubes actually broke in at about 300 hours and then on a lark I tried the tube output of my MCD12000. My sonics very significantly improved. The bass through my Thor using the solid state main output of my C-12000 to my MC2.1KW and the tube output of my MCD12000 is perfect for the bass produced by the all tube bass produced by my XVX.

I have been a solid state proponent for 99% of my 60 plus years in the high end. But I have done a 180 degree turnaround with this new Mac reference gear. For me it's the synergy that the Mac reference chain imparts to my music. I have no idea how dropping a MCD12000 cold into a high end system alone by itself would sound when compared to another DAC or CD player. I still believe that if you have the money, there are ultra high end DAC's, solid state amps, and solid state preamps that can potentially offer a higher level of performance with an XVX, but I am totally satisfied with my sound. Even if I had the money, which I actually do, I wouldn't change from McIntosh.

 

[A-Line]

I don't do vinyl. I'm old and went through the early vinyl decades. I know that the vinyl of today is much improved but I have chosen CD's, SACD's, and high resolution downloads from HD Tracks through USB. I had initially thought that using the SS output of my MCD12000, then tube with the C-12000 and of course tube through my 3500 would be the way to go. And initially, it sounded better than my all tube configuration. What I didn't consider was that I had recently changed out my old EL509S output tubes to the new green EL509S's remanufactured by McIntosh. I got an hour meter and lo and behold the tubes actually broke in at about 300 hours and then on a lark I tried the tube output of my MCD12000. My sonics very significantly improved. The bass through my Thor using the solid state main output of my C-12000 to my MC2.1KW and the tube output of my MCD12000 is perfect for the bass produced by the all tube bass produced by my XVX.

I have been a solid state proponent for 99% of my 60 plus years in the high end. But I have done a 180 degree turnaround with this new Mac reference gear. For me it's the synergy that the Mac reference chain imparts to my music. I have no idea how dropping a MCD12000 cold into a high end system alone by itself would sound when compared to another DAC or CD player. I still believe that if you have the money, there are ultra high end DAC's, solid state amps, and solid state preamps that can potentially offer a higher level of performance with an XVX, but I am totally satisfied with my sound. Even if I had the money, which I actually do, I wouldn't change from McIntosh.

If I were to look for the best in digital it would be between Soulution & CH Precision. The new McIntosh CDP is sort of like my LP12 in that it's not the world's absolute best but certainly ranks very high within the big picture of audio from around the world. The MCD12000 does offer that synergy with other McIntosh components, which is a good thing for me & you since we both use McIntosh for amplification. I was all solid state until I got into digital in 2006. To me tubes smooths out the digital format into a organic sound plus it pushes the soundstage back just a bit because often times digital is too forward sounding- just my opinion here.
However, I still prefer my ReVox B780 receiver for tape playback. I recorded all of my classical radio broadcasts on tape using that receiver so there's some synergy with that too, at least to me.

I'll be still playing my records as long as I can still cue a record. Certain McIntosh amplifiers appeal to me but not all of them. The new MC3500's are very appealing to me. I've been thinking lately how I could build another system using those amplifiers with something like the Klipsch Jubilees as speakers but first I need to buy a nice castle in the countryside. I'll need the space to house those huge speakers and a record & tape collection that takes up a entire room...

 

[ChasFreeland]

I've been using the tube output on my MCD12000 since the day that I brought it home from the store. I tried the solid state outputs briefly just to see the difference. The difference was huge- both the soundstage and dynamics suffered greatly using solid state. I like tubes for all things digital anyway and solid state for analog.

I plan on trying the solid state outputs again sometime in January, by that time I would have owned my new unit about 6 months so any break in ought to be about done by then.

We also prefer the tube output by wide margin. If this player had only the solid state output, I wouldn't buy it because the Spectral I have is better in that regard.

 

[A-Line]

I now have about 400 hours on my new CDP.
I've noticed a big improvement in overall sound at this level. Very realistic 3D imaging along with all of the sonic details and glorious treble, bass, and mid-range happening at a whole new level.

Takes about 2 hours of tube warm-up before the unit becomes euphoric. I'm now in the process of rediscovering my CD collection. Right now this is the best CDP that I've heard. Synergy is key to great quality sound when it comes to digital especially.

The units from Soulution and CH Precision are very good indeed but sound best when used with electronics from the same brand.

The best digital that I've ever heard comes from the Linn Klimax music streamer/server. I prefer to hold the music in my hand rather than do downloads.

Anyway, just a update on my new McIntosh MCD12000 SACD/CD player.
Happy Listening!

 

[ChasFreeland]

I now have about 400 hours on my new CDP.
I've noticed a big improvement in overall sound at this level. Very realistic 3D imaging along with all of the sonic details and glorious treble, bass, and mid-range happening at a whole new level.

Takes about 2 hours of tube warm-up before the unit becomes euphoric. I'm now in the process of rediscovering my CD collection. Right now this is the best CDP that I've heard. Synergy is key to great quality sound when it comes to digital especially.

The units from Soulution and CH Precision are very good indeed but sound best when used with electronics from the same brand.

The best digital that I've ever heard comes from the Linn Klimax music streamer/server. I prefer to hold the music in my hand rather than do downloads.

Anyway, just a update on my new McIntosh MCD12000 SACD/CD player.
Happy Listening!

We are glad to read about your positive experience with the CD12000. Still auditioning one here in BKK. I do not like the SS side, as I said in previous posts, but what I am trying to evaluate now is the worthiness of the tube section. Does the tube performance of this unit justify its price tag? I looked to see other tube CD players. There aren't many on the market and those that are available are certainly not in the shops here in BKK. I use to have a Prima Luna all tube CD player, which was good, but made in China so there were faults. I like the tube section of the McIntosh and have a generally positive experience with the CD12000. I use RCA for the SS and will try-- when I have a extra pair--to use balanced interconnects for the SS. Maybe that will improve the SS sound. Cannot complain about the tube sound, though. Coming to a decision: to buy or not to buy.

 

[A-Line]

We are glad to read about your positive experience with the CD12000. Still auditioning one here in BKK. I do not like the SS side, as I said in previous posts, but what I am trying to evaluate now is the worthiness of the tube section. Does the tube performance of this unit justify its price tag? I looked to see other tube CD players. There aren't many on the market and those that are available are certainly not in the shops here in BKK. I use to have a Prima Luna all tube CD player, which was good, but made in China so there were faults. I like the tube section of the McIntosh and have a generally positive experience with the CD12000. I use RCA for the SS and will try-- when I have a extra pair--to use balanced interconnects for the SS. Maybe that will improve the SS sound. Cannot complain about the tube sound, though. Coming to a decision: to buy or not to buy.

I think that this unit is definitely worth the asking price. I prefer tubes for all things digital.
This CDP works great with my tube preamp & tube amp.
The MCD12000 is the best one box player that I've heard so far.

 

[ChasFreeland]

I think that this unit is definitely worth the asking price. I prefer tubes for all things digital.
This CDP works great with my tube preamp & tube amp.
The MCD12000 is the best one box player that I've heard so far.

I agree. Just for an example of the build/design on this: how many CD players offer both tube and SS, and both balanced and RCA outputs for them so you can switch between imputs on the preamp whenever you might desire to change from tubes to SS? Having a good on board DAC for streaming is also a plus, but increasingly common these days. Like you, I suppose, I prefer CDs/SACDs and especially vinyl records to streaming. This player seems built to last and McIntosh offers customer support like few other companies. There's a whiff of contempt in some hi fi circles for McIntosh products. But in the case of their top models, I think the quality and listening experience are quite good. Here in Thailand, it is difficult to get a good test of the other products you mention, CH Precision, for eg., so comparing the CD12000 with units costing two or three times as much is not possible for me. Thanks for your response to my existential predicament.

 

[A-Line]

I agree. Just for an example of the build/design on this: how many CD players offer both tube and SS, and both balanced and RCA outputs for them so you can switch between imputes on the preamp whenever you might desire to change from tubes to SS? Having a good on board DAC for streaming is also a plus, but increasingly common these days. Like you, I suppose, I prefer CDs/SACDs and especially vinyl records to streaming. This player seems built to last and McIntosh offers customer support like few other companies. There's a whiff of contempt in some hi fi circles for McIntosh products. But in the case of their top models, I think the quality and listening experience are quite good. Here in Thailand, it is difficult to get a good test of the other products you mention, CH Precision, for eg., so comparing the CD12000 with units costing two or three times as much is not possible for me. Thanks for your response to my existential predicament.

I don't think Soulution or CH Precision digital will work in my digital setup. Those are solid state and I prefer tubes.

Maybe if I used really neutral speakers like ATC SCM50 studio monitors the differences would be obvious especially between a all Soulution setup vs my CJ preamp and MAC tube amp, for example.

Based on the top digital playback components that I've looked at and listened to I believe the McIntosh MCD12000 is best suited for a McIntosh amplifiers, in my case my MC2102 tube amp & CJ Classic tube amp type setup.

Burmester, Soulution, CH Precision, Allnic, Audio Note, Shindo, and FM Acoustics electronics all seem to work best with electronics of the same brand. In the case of Burmester ,Audio Note, Shindo, & FM Acoustics using speakers and cables of the same brand work best. Burmester ,Shindo & Audio Note offer turntables as well that are best matched with the same brand of electronics.
These are my observations over the 3 years or so and became more obvious in August of this year when I was auditioning the MCD12000 as a possible upgrade. I have favored McIntosh digital since 2006 when I purchased my first CDP: McIntosh MCD201.

While McIntosh has had reference digital players before they've not offered one as good as the MCD12000 SACD/CD player in my opinion.

Now, I may be the only one that has such a opinion regarding new high end components.
I personally don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. From my perspective I value the music over components and when the tones and synergy line up just so then I get off of the upgrade bus and focus on playing my records, tapes, CD's ECT. I have a rather large collection of physical media(LP's, tapes, CD's), and at the end of the day I want my music collection to sound the best so patience and much listening is required so that I can make the best choices for me and my setup.

I remember reading back in 2007 regarding Ken Shindo. Someone asked him which one of his amps & preamps are the best. His response(not a exact quote but gets to the point):Each one of his amps and preamp designs are the best. Each one has a certain sound and that certain sound has a price. Customers can choose their own flavor of excellence and budget within his product line.

If you do purchase the MCD12000 be sure to post some photos if you can.

Happy Listening

 

[Charles S]

I couldn't agree with you folks more, concerning McIntosh, especially their new reference gear, the MC2.1KW, MCD12000, and C-12000. For me personally, it's the finest gear available. I'm all tube to my XVX, which includes my MC3500's. I don't know of a tube power amp anywhere that will pump out 350 plus watts at 1.6-ohms easily. These amps handle my XVX, and these are enormous complex 5-wayspeakers including a super tweeter, weighing in at 685 pounds, minimum impedance of 1.6 and its actually even a bit lower. They don't ever get more than barely warm. There's no tube amp in existence I would swap them for. There's a magic to McIntosh tubes. What manufacturer has been doing them longer? I know of none. The C-1000 came out in 2005 for 26K. The C-12000 goes for 16K and is a light year better in my opinion, having owned both. The C-1000 was my preamp for years. I waited on my MC2.1KW for 20 years, finally the amp has the new binding posts. It's magnificent. It weighs 415 pounds, 536,000 microfarads (1,720 joules) of capacitors. Using one Niagara 5000 one 20-amp line, it will supply a full 2K watts' enormous bass blast at around 20-25 Hz into my Thor, which needs an amp like this to fully control the enormous dual spider woofers, sensitivity 93 dB. I have bone crushing bass to 10 Hz, but even better my bass blend is perfect, and the extreme LF subsonic sensitivity of my subwoofer system is incredible. I can hear subsonic background notes at .02 watts. The overall resolution of my system is incredible, and the sound is musical, natural, beautiful.

My first cdp was a MCD7000 back in 1984. It had one DAC for both channels. Gordon Gow told me that it saved his company, meaning McIntosh. They sold a ton. It was the first cdp that I heard that sounded musical, like vinyl. I loved it. It cost around 4-5K. I bought the MCD7005 which had dual DAC's, one for each channel, and then a 7007. There's a lot more that goes into a cdp than just the DAC. If you took a MCD7000, inserted it into your system, you would be pleasantly surprised. McIntosh has accumulated over the years digital technology that is uniquely theirs.

If you have an enormous budget, the ultra-high-end gear, no doubt, is a level above what we are talking about here, witness GaJimin's posts on the Gryphon Apex, dCS stack, XVX/dual Subsonic all out 2.1 million system, and dedicated room built for it from the ground up. But the sound I have achieved using all Mac tubes to my XVX and the C-12000 SS output to my MC2.1KW to my Thor is incredibly powerful, beautiful, musical, natural, totally satisfying. I think this is what you guys are talking about regarding what you can achieve using an all-McIntosh system. I agree with you 100%

Charles

 

[ChasFreeland]

To those now using this McIntosh MCD12000, are you using balanced interconnections between the player and the preamp? If I buy this unit, I was thinking of using Cardas cables, the Clear, or the Clear Reflection or the Clear Cygnus. I use Cardas cables for speakers and for the interconnection between preamp-- amps. Kubala Sosna is another option. There's a Kubala Sosna balanced cable now in play as part of the audition package. Any thoughts or experiences regarding this cable link between CD and preamp?

 

[A-Line]

To those now using this McIntosh MCD12000, are you using balanced interconnections between the player and the preamp? If I buy this unit, I was thinking of using Cardas cables, the Clear, or the Clear Reflection or the Clear Cygnus. I use Cardas cables for speakers and for the interconnection between preamp-- amps. Kubala Sosna is another option. There's a Kubala Sosna balanced cable now in play as part of the audition package. Any thoughts or experiences regarding this cable link between CD and preamp?

I'm using the unbalanced RCA connections. I don't use the XLR connections at all on either of my 2 setups.

 

[ChasFreeland]

Surprised to read that. Balanced interconnects makes a substantial improvement in SQ in my experience with this player and with the MCD85 SACD/CD player that I use in a smaller secondary system. Balanced is best in these players. My Spectral only uses RCA.

 

[Charles S]

I agree with Chas-F. I stopped using RCA years ago, so I can't honestly say balanced is better. Thing is, IMO, balanced properly executed is always as good as RCA. It you use any type of tone control or EQ, you lose the goody of the unit being internally balanced. Any kind of long run of IC like my 25' Wel Signature run from my C-12000 to my MC3500 25' away, must be balanced. This cable is huge in diameter, stiff, difficult to work with, a real pain, but I have zero hum, with volume control at 100% all inputs, except my tuner of course. Solid silver, paid 28K for it, years ago. My resolution is incredible. I run an about 20' balanced Wolf AQ subwoofer IC 10% silver to my MC2.1KW An. Paid 1.5K for it years ago. I'm listening to Mozart Symphony 40 and 41. Throughout Symphony 40 there's subsonic tone of about 20 Hz at about 0.2 watts. My system is very sensitive to notes like this. It's what you pay the big bucks for, not necessarily the monster bass blast. This note would go completely un-noticed in most subwoofer systems, IMO. Watts, dynamic range, FR, and resolution is what it's all about for me. Of course you can increase resolution by turning up the volume.

Now this is just my opinion. I can't prove it. I believe, if you keep your lengths reasonably short, and know what you are doing, like I'm sure A-Line does, you can achieve identical results with extremely high-quality RCA (single ended) IC's. And you can save money. It's all in the execution. Power is extremely important, but it can also become an obsession. There are folks with relatively modest systems that chase the latest pc, cable, IC, and power conditioner, and I'm not one of those folks. Shunyata has a faithful following of folks that swear by their latest IC, pc, or conditioner, etc...

Charles

 

[A-Line]

Surprised to read that. Balanced interconnects makes a substantial improvement in SQ in my experience with this player and with the MCD85 SACD/CD player that I use in a smaller secondary system. Balanced is best in these players. My Spectral only uses RCA.

My Conrad Johnson preamp has no XLR connections, only RCA. My MC2102 amp and my tubed Stax headphone energizer both have XLR connections plus RCA connections.

 

[A-Line]

I agree with Chas-F. I stopped using RCA years ago, so I can't honestly say balanced is better. Thing is, IMO, balanced properly executed is always as good as RCA. It you use any type of tone control or EQ, you lose the goody of the unit being internally balanced. Any kind of long run of IC like my 25' Wel Signature run from my C-12000 to my MC3500 25' away, must be balanced. This cable is huge in diameter, stiff, difficult to work with, a real pain, but I have zero hum, with volume control at 100% all inputs, except my tuner of course. Solid silver, paid 28K for it, years ago. My resolution is incredible. I run an about 20' balanced Wolf AQ subwoofer IC 10% silver to my MC2.1KW An. Paid 1.5K for it years ago. I'm listening to Mozart Symphony 40 and 41. Throughout Symphony 40 there's subsonic tone of about 20 Hz at about 0.2 watts. My system is very sensitive to notes like this. It's what you pay the big bucks for, not necessarily the monster bass blast. This note would go completely un-noticed in most subwoofer systems, IMO. Watts, dynamic range, FR, and resolution is what it's all about for me. Of course you can increase resolution by turning up the volume.

Now this is just my opinion. I can't prove it. I believe, if you keep your lengths reasonably short, and know what you are doing, like I'm sure A-Line does, you can achieve identical results with extremely high-quality RCA (single ended) IC's. And you can save money. It's all in the execution. Power is extremely important, but it can also become an obsession. There are folks with relatively modest systems that chase the latest pc, cable, IC, and power conditioner, and I'm not one of those folks. Shunyata has a faithful following of folks that swear by their latest IC, pc, or conditioner, etc...

Charles

I like the tube output from the MCD12000.
I only use RCA connections for all of my stuff.
It's a preference thing for me but also for sound & synergy.

I don't have XLR connections on my Conrad Johnson preamp anyway.

 

[ChasFreeland]

I, too, use balaned for a rather long run of 12 meters, preamp to amplifiers. I waws surprised at what a difference the cables make. I was using RCA for years because of the Spectral system I was using. Balanced cables brought my system to life. There was an increase in volume for one thing. Now I use Cardas. My question today would concern mixing and matching IC cables. I use Cardas cables for speakers and preamp to monoblocks. Also use Cards as my phono IC. With this home demo, I was furnished with Kubala Sosna XLR for the CD - Preamp IC. Seems OK. But would it be better if I did not mix and match different brands of cables? This seems like a small matter, I know, but it might make some difference considering the wide variety of approaches to cable design and construction. .

 

[Charles S]

Chas-F, I am a believer in sound signatures. I have always loved and admired Cardas power. My dealer sells AQ, and I feel the same concerning AQ. I will never forget the difference that I heard between my new beautiful KK Copper Select balanced 24' IC that became the heart of my system for years and the loaned 24' Cardas IC. The Cardas sounded different, and I liked it significantly better than my new KK. As the years passed, and I became more wealthy and able to buy what I wanted, I eventually settled on AQ, but I know and believe that an all Cardas reference system will have a beautiful sound. I'm not sure that you will ever be able to do significantly better than Cardas.

Charles

 

[ChasFreeland]

Chas-F, I am a believer in sound signatures. I have always loved and admired Cardas power. My dealer sells AQ, and I feel the same concerning AQ. I will never forget the difference that I heard between my new beautiful KK Copper Select balanced 24' IC that became the heart of my system for years and the loaned 24' Cardas IC. The Cardas sounded different, and I liked it significantly better than my new KK. As the years passed, and I became more wealthy and able to buy what I wanted, I eventually settled on AQ, but I know and believe that an all Cardas reference system will have a beautiful sound. I'm not sure that you will ever be able to do significantly better than Cardas.

Charles

Thanks for your reply, Charles. I'll look around for Audio Quest. Think I will test Cardas ClearBeyond vs. Cygnus: price/performance. KubalaSosna is also very good.

 

[ChasFreeland]

Brief update on my audition of the McIntosh CD12000: Now using Kubala Sosna cables, the "Expression" line, for the tube output and Kubala Sosna, the "Fascination" cable for the SS output. Wow. These balanced cables have really made a difference. Before I had an out-of-date Kubala Sosna XLR demo wire, an older "Fascination." . It was OK, but nothing compared to these new models. Balanced cables have made a substantial difference in playback SQ. Tube output approaches LP in SQ. SS side is now much much better, almost a rival to the tube output but not quite. This is a good spinner. A keeper.

 

[A-Line]

Brief update on my audition of the McIntosh CD12000: Now using Kubala Sosna cables, the "Expression" line, for the tube output and Kubala Sosna, the "Fascination" cable for the SS output. Wow. These balanced cables have really made a difference. Before I had an out-of-date Kubala Sosna XLR demo wire, an older "Fascination." . It was OK, but nothing compared to these new models. Balanced cables have made a substantial difference in playback SQ. Tube output approaches LP in SQ. SS side is now much much better, almost a rival to the tube output but not quite. This is a good spinner. A keeper.

The MCD12000 SACD/CD is a world class reference player. Those with McIntosh amplification should seriously look at this player if they are looking for a digital solution to SACD/CD or digital streaming. The synergy is definitely there.

This CDP has exceeded all of my expectations for sound & synergy by a wide margin. This player is more of a experience, much like a live classical piano recital, rather than a audio component that reproduces sound. I have the same opinion of my Linn LP12 SE/EAR 324 phono stage combination.

The MCD12000 will be a endgame CD player for many, including me.

My next and final audio project is media storage. I've quite a few records, CD's, & tape that need to be organized so that I can buy more records & CD's.