Anyone into Naim gear?

[mep]

Tim-Because you know nothing about electronics and in particular power supply design, you are thinking in simplistic/jaded terms that have nothing to do with the reality of executing a really good power supply for a given circuit. If you put it in car terms, it would be like buying the bottom of the line Camaro and saying that you believe the 6 cylinder engine has just as much horsepower and torque as the big hairy V8 and the V8 was all BS and nothing more than a rip off. Or conversely, you were ripped off because Chevrolet should have sold you the V8 for the same price as the V6 even though the V8 has two more cylinders, a bigger crankshaft, bigger camshaft, more valves, and a bigger block with more metal, etc.

 

[Chris West]

Davey, I'm not slamming anything. You and I are merely having a philosophical difference of opinion. Mine is that if an upgraded "beefier" power supply can affect an audible improvement in a component's performance, it was not designed and sold with right power supply in the first place. YMMV, of course, but experience with the component isn't necessary to reach this conclusion, only an understanding of the design philosophy/upgrade path is required.

Tim

With all due respect Tim, the first thing I would suggest regarding Naim is that you step back and set aside every notion you've ever had about HiFi design and then re-approach the Naim design concepts with a completely open mind.

That's not to say that there is only one way to crack the audio nut (or that if it were, Naim would be King of the Hill in all regards to everyone) ... but Naim are an individualistic company with a decidedly different design philosophy from anyone else in the field of audio electronics (except of course those companies - in the UK particularly - who've been inspired to plough a similar furrow).

Hence I would say that ...

1) It's not wise to make any assumptions about Naim engineering or system building approach without knowing the whole story.

2) It would take a great deal of time and effort to explain the fundamentals and whats and whys of it all ... so all I know is that a properly set up Naim system (that is properly working which is my job to make happen!) ... has - without fail in the past 30 years I've witnessed it - resulted in hours of listening to music by all those present with virtually no further interest in any technicalities. This has happened in my experience whether it be a bunch of guys listening to a High-End audio system for the first time ever (like in a sound proofed booth at the Bentley stand at the NY Auto show) ... prior to which questions like "is it better than a Bose system" were typical! ...or Naim customers at dealership seminars etc. ... or the intrigued (and in some cases VERY skeptical) audiophiles at club meetings all over the US I've been invited to over the years.

What's most exceptional to me I think ... is that at the Audiophile Club meetings in Chicago and elsewhere (where I've had the pleasure of demonstrating the Naim upgrade paths to lots of people in years past as the US Naim importer) most post demo discussions were about the music being played and not queries about why so many power supply options or Class B vs Class A type of stuff. I love to talk tech of course!!! But IME it's never become the focus of things when a Naim system is sounding as it should

I might be persuaded to talk tech though in a forum environment, if you have some specific engineering theories to put forward as to why power supplies ought not be such a big deal in any audio design. I am curious how that could be construed as so obviously standing to reason as appears to be you opinion if I’m reading you right?

I don’t know why it should be a circuit element ostracized from being a focus of attention on the engineers drawing board for appearing to be so obviously simple to make the best way for any circuit at any price! Options are good in the market place are they not? As long as the simplest and least expensive option works to an appropriately high standard for the amplifier circuit - or whatever other product it's intended for; Refinements are no different from offering better still technologies for audio product lines of the more glamorous attention getting type than the humble single power button adorned power supply... The Cinderalla at the audio ball that's so often kept behind the curtain of audio facades if ever there was one!

Conventional wisdom is a funny old thing isn’t it.

And please be assured that I abhor BS every bit as much as you do

Thanks for being the reason I signed up for this forum!

All the best,

Chris

Naim Service Manager, USA
c/o AV Options

 

[flez007]

Welcome Chris, glad to see you posting here!

 

[steve williams]

Thanks for being the reason I signed up for this forum!

welcome to WBF Chris. Looking to have you enlighten us about Naim as I am reading diverging opinions on this thread

Tim is often times the reason people join WBF

 

[joeinid]

Thanks for being the reason I signed up for this forum!

All the best,

Chris

Naim Service Manager, USA
c/o AV Options

Chris,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your input. I have a dealer urging me to try Naim. I told him I would and am looking forward to the experience. I've explained to him about some of gear that I've tried and my thoughts on it. He loves Naim. I know a couple of his customers who have switched from other highly regarded gear to Naim and have not looked back. They LOVE their Naim gear and now say they hear "music".

 

[Chris West]

Thanks Steve (and to others who have acknowledged my entry so quickly!)

I don't have a lot of time for forums these days I'm afraid (even the Naim one!), because I'm already besieged with emails doing what I do with Naim service! ... Especially now that I'm doing the Naim warranty service work on behalf of the Sound Organisation (Naim Importer), as well as my ongoing partnership in AV Options (operating the authorized US Naim Service center for all Naim gear of any type and age!) ... Though I do like to comment on matters like these sometimes when I'm in the right mood

I'll keep an eye out for things on this forum tho because I'm feeling that it has a good vibe ... and even rather provocative posters like Tim do clearly point out the context for their own points of view by saying things like "Of course none of that means it doesn't sound any good. Haven't heard it." which is cool.

All the best with your online endeavors!



Cheers,

Chris

hmmm... what can I use for an Avatar ...

 

[steve williams]

Thanks Chris

as you can see there is as always a dichotomy of opinion here as in any forum. We would like to think that here at WBF we can at least debate the issues in a gentlemanly fashion

 

[DaveyF]

With all due respect Tim, the first thing I would suggest regarding Naim is that you step back and set aside every notion you've ever had about HiFi design and then re-approach the Naim design concepts with a completely open mind.

That's not to say that there is only one way to crack the audio nut (or that if it were, Naim would be King of the Hill in all regards to everyone) ... but Naim are an individualistic company with a decidedly different design philosophy from anyone else in the field of audio electronics (except of course those companies - in the UK particularly - who've been inspired to plough a similar furrow).

Hence I would say that ...

1) It's not wise to make any assumptions about Naim engineering or system building approach without knowing the whole story.









Chris

Naim Service Manager, USA
c/o AV Options

Hi Chris and welcome. I thought this thread had died off, particularly since it appeared that Tim had made his point and myself and others had countered him with our logic. ( which I doubt he agreed with, but that's ok). So IMO, what you posted makes great sense.

I have heard several Naim based systems over the years and always enjoyed them, so good to have a factory rep here.

 

[Chris West]

Thanks Chris

as you can see there is as always a dichotomy of opinion here as in any forum. We would like to think that here at WBF we can at least debate the issues in a gentlemanly fashion

Amen to that Steve!

Now, some beautiful Sunday weather is here to enjoy my freshly made OJ out on the patio behind my workshop

Have a good one

Chris

 

[JackD201]

I enjoyed listening to a friends all Naim system bookended with the network streamer and the Ovators. No it was not all PRAT-ty. It had many attributes, fine attributes. Though not a perfect fit for my listening requirements, or my personal tastes, I really did find them very enjoyable over a broad range of musical genres. I therefor see how they can appeal to many people and not just the PRAT obsessed.

 

[MylesBAstor]

With all due respect Tim, the first thing I would suggest regarding Naim is that you step back and set aside every notion you've ever had about HiFi design and then re-approach the Naim design concepts with a completely open mind.

That's not to say that there is only one way to crack the audio nut (or that if it were, Naim would be King of the Hill in all regards to everyone) ... but Naim are an individualistic company with a decidedly different design philosophy from anyone else in the field of audio electronics (except of course those companies - in the UK particularly - who've been inspired to plough a similar furrow).

Hence I would say that ...

1) It's not wise to make any assumptions about Naim engineering or system building approach without knowing the whole story.

2) It would take a great deal of time and effort to explain the fundamentals and whats and whys of it all ... so all I know is that a properly set up Naim system (that is properly working which is my job to make happen!) ... has - without fail in the past 30 years I've witnessed it - resulted in hours of listening to music by all those present with virtually no further interest in any technicalities. This has happened in my experience whether it be a bunch of guys listening to a High-End audio system for the first time ever (like in a sound proofed booth at the Bentley stand at the NY Auto show) ... prior to which questions like "is it better than a Bose system" were typical! ...or Naim customers at dealership seminars etc. ... or the intrigued (and in some cases VERY skeptical) audiophiles at club meetings all over the US I've been invited to over the years.

What's most exceptional to me I think ... is that at the Audiophile Club meetings in Chicago and elsewhere (where I've had the pleasure of demonstrating the Naim upgrade paths to lots of people in years past as the US Naim importer) most post demo discussions were about the music being played and not queries about why so many power supply options or Class B vs Class A type of stuff. I love to talk tech of course!!! But IME it's never become the focus of things when a Naim system is sounding as it should

I might be persuaded to talk tech though in a forum environment, if you have some specific engineering theories to put forward as to why power supplies ought not be such a big deal in any audio design. I am curious how that could be construed as so obviously standing to reason as appears to be you opinion if I’m reading you right?

I don’t know why it should be a circuit element ostracized from being a focus of attention on the engineers drawing board for appearing to be so obviously simple to make the best way for any circuit at any price! Options are good in the market place are they not? As long as the simplest and least expensive option works to an appropriately high standard for the amplifier circuit - or whatever other product it's intended for; Refinements are no different from offering better still technologies for audio product lines of the more glamorous attention getting type than the humble single power button adorned power supply... The Cinderalla at the audio ball that's so often kept behind the curtain of audio facades if ever there was one!

Conventional wisdom is a funny old thing isn’t it.

And please be assured that I abhor BS every bit as much as you do

Thanks for being the reason I signed up for this forum!

All the best,

Chris

Naim Service Manager, USA
c/o AV Options

Hi Chris!

Welcome to WBF!

 

[caesar]

I am biased. I love Naim, and one of my headphone amps is a Naim. When you listen to Naim, PRAT is the first thing that comes to the top of your mind. It engages you fully in the performance.

And what's wrong with PRAT, anyways?

To paraphrase Frank Zappa, among others: "Writing About Subjective Audio Gear (Music), is Like Dancing About Architecture"

 

[caesar]

For those who want a more affordable power supply for their Naim gear without paying the high Naim prices, Teddy Pardo's products greatly improve the performance with quieter backgrounds, more PRAt, etc., at a fraction of the price of what Naim is asking.

http://teddypardo.com/Products/Power Supplies/PowerSuppliesForNaim.html

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

In a question I posed to Robert Hartley some years back, he recommended the Naim Nait5i as a good match for my Totem Sttafs., so I went to audition one. It was very nice, but didn't grab my attention. I found its sound rather dull and boring. Last year I heard some more Naim gear at the TAVE Show, and came away with the same impression.

 

[docvale]

Ok guys, I'm bringing up this thread after my Naim audition yesterday night at Innovative AV in NYC.
First of all, I have to say that these events organized by Innovative are really pleasant and enjoyable People there is super-kind and professional.

So, the point of this event was, as from the flyer, to showcase the new Naim NDS top-of-the-line network digital streamer. Actually, there were 2 main rooms. One was filled with Naim reference gear (including the NDS) and terminated on Wilson Sasha, while the other was less ambitious, with the Naim NDX player and intermediate level amplification to drive Wilson Sophia III.

Briefly stated, I could happily live with either of the 2 systems!
The sound was very engaging, detailed, not fatiguing. In the reference room, everything, starting from the deep bass, was just more glorious. But let's be honest, the other room was phenomenal, at half of the price of the reference one.

It would had been great if we could have compared those systems, all based of separates, with integrated amplification. Personally, I would have been very curious to hear how a SuperNait of a SuperUniti were doing with the Sophias.
Anyway, that was not the goal of the demo.
The Naim people were instead mostly promoting their UnitiServe, a device which works as ripping unit for CDs (using a proprietary approach) and which bridges networked hard-drive with the NDX or NDS, without the need of an active computer.

So, the demo in the "lower level" room (which is the one I've been in mostly) started comparing the NDX with a Naim CD player, followed by the comparison of 4 ripping approaches: iTunes on PC, iTunes on Mac, another sw (don't remember the name) on Mac and the UnitiServe.
According to the Naim representative, listening to those ripping approaches would have showed how tremendously better would have been with the UnitiServe. Honestly, I did not get it. Some of the people there defined the Windows-based ripping "not listenable"... well, that was probably an issue with the audiophile-related abuse of superlatives!
The UnitiServe-based ripping was announced as "unbelievable", which is another over-statement, IMHO. On the other hand it is a true "comfortable" product: as long as your home is wired through ethernet, you can place the unit wherever you want, not needing a computer in your listening room.

Summing up, this Naim gear is really really good, IMHO.
The Naim guy said that, in his opinion, the Naim DAC is better than the NDX. I'd love to listen to that DAC, partnered with a Mac plus a USB-to-SPDIF adapter. Partnered with Wilson Sophia III, a fast amplification, such as from Naim itself or Spectral, and some good analog it could have a spot in my dream system

 

[flez007]

I heard a similar demo at Innovative some years back (Naim+Wilson) and also liked it a lot (the 500 Power amp was just introduced back then). thanks for sharing your notes.

 

[Alan Sircom]

I have used and am currently evaluating Naim Audio equipment. It's generally very good equipment, but distinctive. Over the years, the brand's distinctiveness has lessened (much to the chagrin of the old guard, who would like Naim equipment to be preserved in 1980s-era aspic) but there is still a mindset that it's best to use Naim with Naim and use it with a Linn turntable and an editorial range of loudspeakers (Naim, Neat, Kudos, some PMC, Harbeth, Spendor, ProAc and - if you are bold enough not to use UK-designed loudspeakers, Shahinian or possibly Audiovector).

This is nonsense.

I've heard Naim front ends being used in some non-Naim systems with great success (I used the Naim NDX with a conrad-johnson pre/power into small Avalons and the results were truly excellent), Naim amplification with other sources (Well-Tempered, DPS, Artemis Labs vinyl, and Wadia and dCS digital front ends all work exceptionally well with Naim), and Naim electronics with Raidho, Wilson, Sonus Faber, Totem, Audio Physic and other loudspeakers.

I think the limited choice of products used with Naim comes down to laziness on the part of some dealers. There are some easy and obvious partners to Naim equipment, and you don't need to think too hard to make good systems... you just follow the pack. However, it also means it can build a false wall between Naim equipment and the rest of the audio world. Possibly to the detriment of all.

The power supply 'issue' is more an issue of buying into negative marketing. Anyone who's heard the difference between an Audio Research Reference 5 and a 40th Anniversary preamp knows the significance of an improved power supply. Naim recognised early on that its buyers gradually moved from a good audio place to a better audio place by using a power supply that would have been beyond the initial spending power of the buyer. For example, a Naim CD5 XS CD player costs £2,000 in the UK and the Naim FlatCap XS is an optional £750 power supply upgrade. While not everyone will like the Naim CD5 XS sound (meaning they will probably not like the CD5 XS/FlatCap XS combination either), those who do like its sound generally think the CD5 XS is about the best player you can get at £2,000 and the CD5 XS/FlatCap XS is the best player you can get this side of about £3,500. Could a prospective purchaser of a £2,000 player stretch to £2,750 at the outset? Possibly, possibly not. But a person who spends £2,000 today might be able to spend an extra £750 in the future and make their good player even better.

(Curiously, one of the biggest proponents of the negative marketing toward Naim power supplies came from a company that made its bones building custom power supplies for Naim preamps. In fairness, Naim's one-time dominance of the home market did leave something of a sour taste in the mouths of its rivals at the time and - although that one-time dominance was at its peak a quarter of a century ago - there are some very long memories in hi-fi.)

I do have a problem with some of Naim's higher-end product pricing, because some of these high end products don't include a built-in power supply. So if someone buys a CD555 or an NDS, it does not include a power supply in the basic price. This is because there are power supply options, especially with the NDS, but a guide price should be a fixture of the price list, IMO. That being said, it's possibly not as big an issue as if it were a factor at the lower-cost products; if you can afford more than £13,000 for a CD player, you can probably afford more than £17,000 for the CD player with its mandatory PSU and maybe even afford close to £22,500 for the full nine yards.

 

[caesar]

I have used and am currently evaluating Naim Audio equipment. It's generally very good equipment, but distinctive. Over the years, the brand's distinctiveness has lessened (much to the chagrin of the old guard, who would like Naim equipment to be preserved in 1980s-era aspic) but there is still a mindset that it's best to use Naim with Naim and use it with a Linn turntable and an editorial range of loudspeakers (Naim, Neat, Kudos, some PMC, Harbeth, Spendor, ProAc and - if you are bold enough not to use UK-designed loudspeakers, Shahinian or possibly Audiovector).

This is nonsense.

I've heard Naim front ends being used in some non-Naim systems with great success (I used the Naim NDX with a conrad-johnson pre/power into small Avalons and the results were truly excellent), Naim amplification with other sources (Well-Tempered, DPS, Artemis Labs vinyl, and Wadia and dCS digital front ends all work exceptionally well with Naim), and Naim electronics with Raidho, Wilson, Sonus Faber, Totem, Audio Physic and other loudspeakers.

I think the limited choice of products used with Naim comes down to laziness on the part of some dealers. There are some easy and obvious partners to Naim equipment, and you don't need to think too hard to make good systems... you just follow the pack. However, it also means it can build a false wall between Naim equipment and the rest of the audio world. Possibly to the detriment of all.

The power supply 'issue' is more an issue of buying into negative marketing. Anyone who's heard the difference between an Audio Research Reference 5 and a 40th Anniversary preamp knows the significance of an improved power supply. Naim recognised early on that its buyers gradually moved from a good audio place to a better audio place by using a power supply that would have been beyond the initial spending power of the buyer. For example, a Naim CD5 XS CD player costs £2,000 in the UK and the Naim FlatCap XS is an optional £750 power supply upgrade. While not everyone will like the Naim CD5 XS sound (meaning they will probably not like the CD5 XS/FlatCap XS combination either), those who do like its sound generally think the CD5 XS is about the best player you can get at £2,000 and the CD5 XS/FlatCap XS is the best player you can get this side of about £3,500. Could a prospective purchaser of a £2,000 player stretch to £2,750 at the outset? Possibly, possibly not. But a person who spends £2,000 today might be able to spend an extra £750 in the future and make their good player even better.

(Curiously, one of the biggest proponents of the negative marketing toward Naim power supplies came from a company that made its bones building custom power supplies for Naim preamps. In fairness, Naim's one-time dominance of the home market did leave something of a sour taste in the mouths of its rivals at the time and - although that one-time dominance was at its peak a quarter of a century ago - there are some very long memories in hi-fi.)

I do have a problem with some of Naim's higher-end product pricing, because some of these high end products don't include a built-in power supply. So if someone buys a CD555 or an NDS, it does not include a power supply in the basic price. This is because there are power supply options, especially with the NDS, but a guide price should be a fixture of the price list, IMO. That being said, it's possibly not as big an issue as if it were a factor at the lower-cost products; if you can afford more than £13,000 for a CD player, you can probably afford more than £17,000 for the CD player with its mandatory PSU and maybe even afford close to £22,500 for the full nine yards.

Alan, nice post. As you state above, I think their upgrade strategy, which has a lot of flexibility for the customer, is a very, very wise business move. Not only are the financial steps "reasonable", as "reasonable" can be defined in this crazy hobby, but I think it works well psychologically. Thinking about the future, especially the audio future, is a very pleasant experience for many of us, nuts. We all love to day dream about our next piece of gear or upgrade. So kudos go to Naim business development guys, who have done a better job than most other audio manufacturers, in commercializing those positive feelings of expectation and anticipation.

Additionally, do you know if any products have emerged from the recent Focal / Naim merger? I wonder if this merger was done only to materialize operational efficiencies or whether the engineers will be able to figure out a "synergy" between the 2 sonic signatures.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Alan, nice post. As you state above, I think their upgrade strategy, which has a lot of flexibility for the customer, is a very, very wise business move. Not only are the financial steps "reasonable", as "reasonable" can be defined in this crazy hobby, but I think it works well psychologically. Thinking about the future, especially the audio future, is a very pleasant experience for many of us, nuts. We all love to day dream about our next piece of gear or upgrade. So kudos go to Naim business development guys, who have done a better job than most other audio manufacturers, in commercializing those positive feelings of expectation and anticipation.

Additionally, do you know if any products have emerged from the recent Focal / Naim merger? I wonder if this merger was done only to materialize operational efficiencies or whether the engineers will be able to figure out a "synergy" between the 2 sonic signatures.

There has been a slew of new products from Naim in recent months, but none so far that have a direct 'synergy'. IMO, there doesn't seem to be much synergy between the brands sonically, especially when you get into the Utopia range. That said, Focal now has a big Naim system in one of its demonstration rooms in St Etienne and there are some Utopias perched near the listening room in Salisbury.

Personally, I think a great deal more synergy between the two brands could happen if the Naim end of the equation began looking past NAC A5 as loudspeaker cable of choice...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Chris, the Naim rep said:

I might be persuaded to talk tech though in a forum environment, if you have some specific engineering theories to put forward as to why power supplies ought not be such a big deal in any audio design. I am curious how that could be construed as so obviously standing to reason as appears to be you opinion if I’m reading you right?

That would be backwards. What would be forwards would be the company that has built its product line on PS upgrades explaining why those upgrades are important and how a PS that is providing adequate power to the amplifier design, properly shielded, not buzzing or vibrating or overheating, could be limiting the performance of that amplifier. I could be dead wrong in my belief that power supplies only impact sound when they're faulty or not up to the task. PS impact on sound quality could be an infinite continuum from hearing aid batteries to a nuclear plant (I exaggerate for effect) but in 4 pages, no one, including the Naim rep, has offered any evidence of that.

Tim