Anyone into Naim gear?

[docvale]

Tim,

Semantically, I can agree with your point: a design in which a "tweak" (such as a PS upgrade) induces a sonic improvement, relies on a faulty (or compromised) design.

But in a practical world I do not agree.
Almost all the audio brands we love or hate have a selection of lines of gear. Some of them have it wide (Naim, Focal, B&W, Audio Research, Burmester), some other limited (VTL, Spectral, Mark Levinson), some almost have no line separation (Convergent, DartZeel).
According to your point, every brand that produces more than one line of products should have a well made one (the reference) and a series of faulty ones.
But it is clear that the less expensive designs HAVE TO have some compromises compared to the reference lines.

The fact that PS is touched here may create more doubts in you, and I can get it. Notwithstanding, the PS of a ARC LS-17 is definitely modest when compared to the one of a Ref5. Is the LS-17 a bad designed product? Or are the design compromises due to a price tag goal? Would it perform better if fed by a more generous PS?
But, AFAIK, in the case of Naim the addition of external PS in usually mandatory, and can vary according to the system design. Most of their preamps, for example, do not incorporate an internal PS: either you slave them to the PS of a power amp or you get a dedicated PS. Then, if you were concerned about the differences between the various PSs, well, I don't know, probably the differences might tend to zero once you provide just the right power needed.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

Semantically, I can agree with your point: a design in which a "tweak" (such as a PS upgrade) induces a sonic improvement, relies on a faulty (or compromised) design.

But in a practical world I do not agree.
Almost all the audio brands we love or hate have a selection of lines of gear. Some of them have it wide (Naim, Focal, B&W, Audio Research, Burmester), some other limited (VTL, Spectral, Mark Levinson), some almost have no line separation (Convergent, DartZeel).
According to your point, every brand that produces more than one line of products should have a well made one (the reference) and a series of faulty ones.But it is clear that the less expensive designs HAVE TO have some compromises compared to the reference lines.

The fact that PS is touched here may create more doubts in you, and I can get it. Notwithstanding, the PS of a ARC LS-17 is definitely modest when compared to the one of a Ref5. Is the LS-17 a bad designed product? Or are the design compromises due to a price tag goal? Would it perform better if fed by a more generous PS?
But, AFAIK, in the case of Naim the addition of external PS in usually mandatory, and can vary according to the system design. Most of their preamps, for example, do not incorporate an internal PS: either you slave them to the PS of a power amp or you get a dedicated PS. Then, if you were concerned about the differences between the various PSs, well, I don't know, probably the differences might tend to zero once you provide just the right power needed.

Doc your a reasonable man making a reasonable point but I'm not sure the one I bolded above applies here. Brands produce amps with a variety of power outputs, I'm assuming they, therefore, have a variety of power supply requirements and that a sufficient PS for the 150 watt per channel integrated would be different than the 500 watt mono blocks. Let me rephrase this the way I just did over on the Transformers thread. Maybe someone, somewhere can help me understand:

Is there a point at which a good, quiet power supply is delivering what is needed to allow an amp design to operate at its peak? If not, does that mean that more power will always sound better? Also, if not, how does that work? What is the larger power supply delivering that has the audible impact on sound?

Tim

 

[docvale]

Ok, I get your point... and I obviously don't know the answer!

The NDX I listened to was with its internal PS, but upgrades are available. I have no clue about the hypothetical improvements...

 

[Alan Sircom]

Chris, the Naim rep said:



That would be backwards. What would be forwards would be the company that has built its product line on PS upgrades explaining why those upgrades are important and how a PS that is providing adequate power to the amplifier design, properly shielded, not buzzing or vibrating or overheating, could be limiting the performance of that amplifier. I could be dead wrong in my belief that power supplies only impact sound when they're faulty or not up to the task. PS impact on sound quality could be an infinite continuum from hearing aid batteries to a nuclear plant (I exaggerate for effect) but in 4 pages, no one, including the Naim rep, has offered any evidence of that.

Tim

Are you right or wrong in your beliefs? Why not put them to the sword. I know those who have been exposed to high doses of AVI have a problem with Naim Audio, so go seek out Heed Audio products instead. Try the basic Obelisk integrated and add the power supply. Or, try a Naim preamp with one of the many aftermarket power supplies.

They all seem to do the same thing. Less ripple on the DC rail. You might argue that this is inaudible, or at least inaudible below a certain threshold and therefore an easily and cheaply-rendered solution. Others would argue that it isn't. The only answer in this respect is to actually listen.

Offering evidence with regard to listening tests in words is impossible. The best we can get is to report the results of those listening tests, which can be rejected as not evidence. But the evidence hangs on the results of listening tests.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Are you right or wrong in your beliefs? Why not put them to the sword. I know those who have been exposed to high doses of AVI have a problem with Naim Audio, so go seek out Heed Audio products instead. Try the basic Obelisk integrated and add the power supply. Or, try a Naim preamp with one of the many aftermarket power supplies.

They all seem to do the same thing. Less ripple on the DC rail. You might argue that this is inaudible, or at least inaudible below a certain threshold and therefore an easily and cheaply-rendered solution. Others would argue that it isn't. The only answer in this respect is to actually listen.

Offering evidence with regard to listening tests in words is impossible. The best we can get is to report the results of those listening tests, which can be rejected as not evidence. But the evidence hangs on the results of listening tests.

If you'll look up a post, Alan, you'll understand that it's not so much a belief as a question. And anti-Naim would be the result of high doses of Ashley, not AVi . My speakers, because I like them, have prejudiced me in favor of the things they do well and against systems that fall down in their areas of strength. In that regard, I doubt that I'm much different from other people who really like what they listen to every day. But the AVi's are not responsible for my skepticism of the power supply upgrade. That has to do with a product strategy that makes no logical sense to me and looks more about marketing than performance. But it is skepticism, not a conclusion. Which is why I was looking for an explanation. Less ripple on the rail? I like the poetry at least. Any idea what the audible impact is? The drop in noise floor, IMD, etc.?

A listening test? I believe in expectation bias. I have proven, to myself at least, that I am as vulnerable as anyone. Unless I could get a dealer to set up a volume-balanced blind switching test I expect I would not hear the difference, even if it was there, unless it was very marked. Is it? Thanks for the answer.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

They are modular designs. It's not so much about the amount of power but rather the quality of the power. Ripple is only one among many factors. If your primary market is a frugal one like the UK, it does makes sense to design to a price point even if you know how to do better. Top quality parts aren't cheap and if you pop the PS' open you'll see that it isn't just better parts but more parts as well. I see no reason why they shouldn't offer the best that they can make. In fact they should. However if that's all they put out on the market and they lose their base, what would be the point?

Let's just say that the base models really are good enough and that the upgrades are just better. It's always nice to have a choice.

 

[DaveyF]

A listening test? I believe in expectation bias. I have proven, to myself at least, that I am as vulnerable as anyone. Unless I could get a dealer to set up a volume-balanced blind switching test I expect I would not hear the difference, even if it was there, unless it was very marked. Is it? Thanks for the answer.

Tim

Tim, I think expectation bias can work both ways...for and against. In this situation it would appear that you would have a very negative expectation ( and unreasonably so, IMO). Given that, I suspect that you would find that the Naim gear would live up to your expectation, HOWEVER, you will NEVER know unless you give it a listen

 

[caesar]

Is there a point at which a good, quiet power supply is delivering what is needed to allow an amp design to operate at its peak? If not, does that mean that more power will always sound better? Also, if not, how does that work? What is the larger power supply delivering that has the audible impact on sound?

Tim

Phelonious, I remember having this type of conversation with guys from Ayre 4 or 5 years ago when they started selling a European turntable called DPS. To get it working in the US, they had to redesign the motor in the power supply for some reason. Technical details bore me to tears, as I trust my ears, but I remember the engineers telling me it that a big component of good power supplies is reducing RFI. ARt Dudley goes into this
a bit in his review here:

http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/bauer_audio_dps_turntable/index.html

If Dudley's writing is a bit dumbed down for you and you are genuinely interested, you should give Ayre a call. The are genuinely good guys. Real mensches. I remember one of the engineers telling me that he spent most of the time during the workday designing the power supplies for their amps. They will take their time and explain everything to you in plain English.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, I think expectation bias can work both ways...for and against. In this situation it would appear that you would have a very negative expectation ( and unreasonably so, IMO). Given that, I suspect that you would find that the Naim gear would live up to your expectation, HOWEVER, you will NEVER know unless you give it a listen

We're agreeing, Davey. I'm saying that my expectations being what they are, I would not hear a difference unless that difference was obvious or was presented in a blind, volume matched A/B. I probably couldn't find a Naim dealer within 100 miles, much less one willing to set that up for me for the sake of an intellectual exercise. So barring that, as I often do, I was looking for someone who believes in these upgrades to identify the problems they are meant to address, the solutions in the upgrades, and the audible improvements that result. I'm not expecting anyone here to have measurements (though Naim should), but I thought someone here might understand it better than I do. Reducing ripple on the rails and proper shielding is all I've gotten so far. DC ripple can cause noise, and a variety of distortions, but it really shouldn't be an audible problem, even at Naim's entry level. Same goes for good shielding. It is absolutely fundamental to good design. It should not be an issue in the cheapest products Naim sells.

I'll give them, and their loyal listeners, the benefit of the doubt and assume there is more to the story.

Tim

 

[cjfrbw]

Heard an all Naim setup at California Audio Show 2011. It looked beautiful, sounded awful.

I know that couldn't be right because Naim has a devoted fan base, but there wasn't anything at the show that didn't sound better.

It was from an audio store in San Francisco, and the sales people were all tats, hats, leather and urban attitude, so maybe they just didn't set it up right.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Heard an all Naim setup at California Audio Show 2011. It looked beautiful, sounded awful.

I know that couldn't be right because Naim has a devoted fan base, but there wasn't anything at the show that didn't sound better.

It was from an audio store in San Francisco, and the sales people were all tats, hats, leather and urban attitude, so maybe they just didn't set it up right.

Not necessarily. They can sound awful, especially if you are used to another audio paradigm.

Naim is almost the perfect antithesis to the 'absolute sound' ethos. If you are used to a system that is directed toward delivering timbral, tonal and spatial accuracy, a system that does none of that but concentrates on temporal precision can be too different to parse in a single bite.

The reverse often holds for Naim owners. They find other systems musically bereft, even if they appreciate the tonal and spatial accuracy.

 

[audioarcher]

I've heard an all Naim system a few times at a local dealer. It only sounded good when the volume was very low for some reason. Once I turned it up things fell apart. One of the times was with Tannoy Glenair's that are fairly efficient. I guess it's just not my cup of tea.

 

[Grooves]

I have used a Naim 52/250 combo for many years. I'm a bit unusual since I combine non Naim phono, CD, etc., with my Naim gear. In fact my phono and CD are both tubed. I was forced to try a tubed phono for reasons too lengthy to delve into. I have heard better non Naim systems sometimes and I really like CJ amps and have a MV60 in a alternate system. I would like to try and go all tubes but at the moment things are sounding really good so I am content for the moment. Initially I went to Naim to get away from all the cable issues that were all the rage at that time. I had started with non Naim gear and wasn't happy with it. I heard Naim amp/preamp gear and really enjoyed it and it seemed pretty hassle free. I bought the less expensive models and moved up when I wanted "more". But with "more" came more issues with outside the house influences (power line RF). I had many a frustrating year trying to figure and conquer those problems, which were not just due to using Naim, but actually SS equipment. Naim gear sounds good to me. I can't say I have ever heard it sound bad anywhere else I have encountered it. I have heard other things sound bad, or not liked it as well and I have heard other non Naim sound really good. Naim gear does have its own sound. While I don't live for PRAT I am very conscious when I hear something that seems to lack proper bottom end control and therefore sounds slow or lacks musical rhythm. It's not the sole characteristic that I look for but it is an important one. Do I wish it were less expensive? Hell Yes! But then again I wish all the expensive stuff that I happen to like was cheaper so I could afford it more easily. Whether I stay with Naim or move away from it time will only tell. But, when I look for something else it will need to have to some of the qualities that Naim gear delivers and some it doesn't.

 

[gtiboy]

How is Naim's NDS their top source considered amongst american HiFi brands like Audio research, Boulder, Spectral, Mcintosh?

I've heard it in a system consisting of a 282 / Super Cap DR / 250 against the best of what Byston can do and it clearly was the better sounding system, much more organic and natural, compared to Bryston's clean but analytical cold sound.

 

[kleinbje]

I haven't heard the NDS, I'm pretty much all vinyl in my main room. That being said my NAC52/250/Scap blows my mind nightly. I'm not a PRAT nut, so I can't really comment on that. I find music to just be very involving. I started with a Nait 5i in my bedroom hooked to a squeezebox duet, and found myself listening in there more, than my music room at the time. The rest is history. I have a 9bst in my theater and like it a lot, haven't heard bryston with a music only system though. I tend to get used naim stuff do to the cost, and great service availability. Highly recommended. Good luck.

 

[joeinid]

I plan on trying this when it's released to my dealer, the new SUPERNAIT 2

The new SUPERNAIT 2 The most significant change from SUPERNAIT to SUPERNAIT 2 is the removal of the digital inputs. As the SuperUniti already fulfils the role of integrated amplifier with digital inputs, Naim have seized the opportunity to improve performance through concentrating on an analogue only integrated amplifier. Removing the digital section also allows the power supplies to be further optimised for the analogue stages. Power output remains at 80W but with significantly greater dynamic capability due to a larger transformer. The power supply for the critical preamplifier stage uses Naim DR (Discrete Regulator) technology. All inputs are now hand wired so they are individually decoupled for improved microphonic isolation. Components have been upgraded in critical areas such as the power amp stage where small signal capacitors have been changed to high quality film types. The PCB layout and wiring loom have been improved following experience on other new products recently like the DAC-V1. The headphone output on the front panel is now on a 1?4" (6.35mm) socket and is driven from a new high-quality Class-A headphone amplifier; reflecting the increasing interest in high quality headphone playback. Constant current source circuit technique employed to provide ultra-quiet drive signals for relays. Ceramic heat sink isolators are used to improve sound quality, as there is less capacitive coupling between devices and the chassis in the power and preamp sections. SUPERNAIT 2 Features ? 80W per channel (into 8 ohms) 135W per channel (into 4ohms) ? 6 analogue inputs: 4 x RCA/DIN, 1 x RCA/3.5mm jack, and 1 x powered input for phono ? 1?4" (6.35mm) front panel headphone output ? High-quality Class A Headphone amplifier ? Custom-designed toroidal transformer with seven separate windings ? Powered input for use with StageLine or SuperLine phono stages ? Subwoofer output ? Record output via HDD output ? USB-mini B socket for updates ? External remote in ? Performance upgradable with FlatCap, HiCap or SuperCap power supplies ? Aluminium chassis and sleeve with brushed, black anodised fascia ? British build and design US RETAIL $4995

Class-A Headphone Amp The headphone amplifier cleverly uses the pre-amp output amplifier for headphone drive. The moment headphones are plugged in; the output current drive is automatically increased fivefold to give dynamic drive for all headphone impedances. The amplifier runs from a high voltage power supply so has the ability to drive high impedance headphones with the voltage swing they require for open and dynamic sound. The result is the audio stages are kept as simple and pure as possible for both normal and headphone modes. Single ended Class-A is long known for its natural sound quality and exhibits zero crossover distortion. Its Achilles’ heel is that it is inefficient: for headphone drive this is not important so all the benefits can be exploited. Constant Current Drive The quality of the power supplied to the muting relays on an amplifier makes a surprising difference to the sound quality. Naim’s R&D concluded with the reference NAC552 preamplifier that a constant current drive gave an ideal low noise supply and have been trickling down this implementation since. Naim Discrete Regulator Naim's new discrete regulator betters industry standard monolithic voltage regulators and, even more importantly, has had its design and component selection refined in the listening room to deliver maximised sound quality from Naim's audio circuits.

 

[kleinbje]

That sounds pretty sweet. I think you are going to be in for a real treat. What speakers are you using?

 

[joeinid]

That sounds pretty sweet. I think you are going to be in for a real treat. What speakers are you using?

I'll be trying TAD CR-1's, Sonus Faber Evolutions and Klipsch Cornwall III's. I am also thinking about jumping on the KEF LS50 bandwagon. It may be several weeks before it arrives but I am really looking forward to it. A friend has a Nait 5i in a secondary system and I really like the way it sounds. I have a feeling it will be a really nice integrated and it may have me thinking about going up the line if it works out well.

 

[Ptplayers]

I'll be trying TAD CR-1's, Sonus Faber Evolutions and Klipsch Cornwall III's. I am also thinking about jumping on the KEF LS50 bandwagon. It may be several weeks before it arrives but I am really looking forward to it. A friend has a Nait 5i in a secondary system and I really like the way it sounds. I have a feeling it will be a really nice integrated and it may have me thinking about going up the line if it works out well.

A great speaker that works well with Naim gear is Kudos .

I have a 202/250-2 combo and absolutely love it and would never sway from Naim .

Running a set of Kudos C2's and lots of swing .

Like with any audio equipment set up is important .

 

[Ptplayers]

John you haven't heard my system lately have you .