Apogee Full range

[Blizzard]

Interesting. This is what Robert Harley had to say about the same attributes: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/mark-levinson-no53-monoblock-power-amplifier-tas-213-1/

"The amplifier conveyed a sense of effortless dynamics and control in the low bass, imparting a powerful rhythmic drive, particularly on music with a strong kickdrum line. On the track “Blues Be Out” from Wishful Thinking’s only album, drummer David Garabaldi’s rock-solid funk groove never had more body-moving pulse than through the Nº53. In fact, the Nº53’s dynamics were outstanding across the spectrum; transients such as snare drum pops fairly leaped from the soundstage with an immediacy, impact, and high “jump factor.” I appreciated the Nº53’s dynamics when listening to the great Nojima Plays Liszt album on Reference Recordings, which the Nº53 reproduced with an effortlessness and ease that were stunning. Correctly reproducing the percussive nature of the piano—the steep transient information—is a prerequisite to realism, and the Nº53 exhibited this quality in spades."

And on upper frequencies:

"Aside from the effortless dynamics and seemingly unlimited power reserves, the Nº53’s most salient characteristic was an immediacy, incisiveness, and vividness in the upper midrange and lower treble. This region was upfront and centerstage, bringing high-frequency detail to the fore and infusing timbres with palpable presence. "

More poetry:
"The Nº53’s spatial presentation was remarkable; it had the most precise image focus and image outlines I’ve heard from any power amplifier. The soundstage had a “sculpted” quality within which instruments were sharply defined, precisely located in space, and clearly separated from other images. This isn’t something I had to listen carefully for, or compare with other amplifiers; the spatial accuracy was immediately obvious."

On class D being a bad idea in general, this is what RH had to say:

"Conclusion
The Mark Levinson Nº53 is an intriguing product that represents a new direction for this venerable company. As the company’s first switching amplifier and current flagship at $50k per pair, the Nº53 shatters the stereotype of the switching amplifier as the technology of sonic compromise. The Nº53 is a pivotal product for Mark Levinson, and one that says much about the brand and the company’s direction. The fact that it uses such a radically different topology is a daring move.

But it’s a move that has paid off, in my view. The Nº53 has some remarkable—even stunning—sonic qualities. These include dynamics, bass grip, midbass articulation and expression, and the ability to present music as separate instruments rather than as slightly homogenized. In these areas, the Nº53 was world-class.

The Nº53’s somewhat forward spatial perspective, slight emphasis on the upper-midrange and treble, and vivid soundstaging will suit some listeners more than others. If you lean toward the warm, forgiving, and rounded presentation of a single-ended triode amplifier, the Nº53 will likely not be your cup of tea. For those listeners who want to hear, with great precision and vivid clarity, every last detail on a recording, the Mark Levinson Nº53 will likely be a revelation."

I hope you agree that his assessment could not be more different than yours.

I think this sums it up about right:


"If you lean toward the warm, forgiving, and rounded presentation of a single-ended triode amplifier, the Nº53 will likely not be your cup of tea"


In other words distorted, inaccurate, and using 40's technology I wonder when people will realize those special effects can be emulated in the digital domain?

 

[amirm]

Amir,

I know exactly what he wrote, you conveniently left out this important part that he started the Sound part of the review with;

"The Nº53 had a distinctive sonic character that was different from every other amplifier I’d heard, and one that will greatly appeal to some listeners more than others. This was true on all three loudspeakers I drove with the Nº53—the Vandersteen 7s, B&W 802Ds, and Rockport Altairs."

In other words its highly colored!

Highly colored? No, it is the opposite as he describes at the end. That is, if you like the softer colored sound of tubes, this accurate presentation may not be to your liking. The character he speaks of above is the positives the amplifier brings, not negative. Class D amplifiers have such incredible bass performance that other classes simply cannot match. In that regard, they are different. They throw out the cobwebs out of your woofers that are left by other amps .

BTW, I think both of your reviews are wrong. It is just that yours is far more wrong than his.

Even if he hadn't mentioned it I can judge equipment myself quite accurately. The rest of the review is jam packed with hifi superlatives without a single mention of musicality, tone, timbre, and most importantly "Natural"!

No mention? How about this: "This region was upfront and centerstage, bringing high-frequency detail to the fore and infusing timbres with palpable presence."

On musical, he says a lot. This is one of them: "Another parallel with pianists comes to mind; the Nº53 is the sonic equivalent of the musical performance of Minoro Nojima on Nojima Plays Liszt—an almost super-human precision and technical perfection."

How so Amir? Sure the man has to have some good things to say about the amp but he's not going to completely destroy his reputation without some truth, did you miss this section?

No, I missed nothing. Let me know where he said the amplifier was crap, and that all class D amps are the same.

Give me an effing break, the 53 is just a class D amp with switching power supplies for $50k!

david

No Dave. Mark Levinson NO 53 uses a massive linear power supply, not switching. So I can't give you a break .

 

[amirm]

I think this sums it up about right:


"If you lean toward the warm, forgiving, and rounded presentation of a single-ended triode amplifier, the Nº53 will likely not be your cup of tea"


In other words distorted, inaccurate, and using 40's technology I wonder when people will realize those special effects can be emulated in the digital domain?

I think people also forget that the first priority for a power amplifier to provide power! So many amplifiers fall short with the bass getting thin and other distortions creeping in as you ask them to produce some dynamic range. Nothing about an amplifier is more important than providing more power than you will ever need. Hit that cap and such terrible things happen that dwarf any other audiophile term you want to use to describe it. Indeed if you don't hear these artifacts, then you lack critical ability to hear non-linear distortions altogether.

 

[Blizzard]

I think people also forget that the first priority for a power amplifier to provide power! So many amplifiers fall short with the bass getting thin and other distortions creeping in as you ask them to produce some dynamic range. Nothing about an amplifier is more important than providing more power than you will ever need. Hit that cap and such terrible things happen that dwarf any other audiophile term you want to use to describe it. Indeed if you don't hear these artifacts, then you lack critical ability to hear non-linear distortions altogether.

I've yet to hear a good sounding tube amp. But I'm more into music than distortion

 

[ddk]

Highly colored? No, it is the opposite as he describes at the end. That is, if you like the softer colored sound of tubes, this accurate presentation may not be to your liking. The character he speaks of above is the positives the amplifier brings, not negative. Class D amplifiers have such incredible bass performance that other classes simply cannot match. In that regard, they are different. They throw out the cobwebs out of your woofers that are left by other amps .

BTW, I think both of your reviews are wrong. It is just that yours is far more wrong than his.


No mention? How about this: "This region was upfront and centerstage, bringing high-frequency detail to the fore and infusing timbres with palpable presence."

On musical, he says a lot. This is one of them: "Another parallel with pianists comes to mind; the Nº53 is the sonic equivalent of the musical performance of Minoro Nojima on Nojima Plays Liszt—an almost super-human precision and technical perfection."


No, I missed nothing. Let me know where he said the amplifier was crap, and that all class D amps are the same.


No Dave. Mark Levinson NO 53 uses a massive linear power supply, not switching. So I can't give you a break .

Editorialize as much you like Amir, I don't really care (edit) nor do I need the words of a 3rd party to tell me what to think . I know exactly what the No.53 sounds like and I think its horrible, you're entitled to your opinions.

And yes it is a typical class D sound and it has switching power supplies under any name you wish to give it;

"The Nº53 solves the dead-band problem through a patented and proprietary technology called “Interleaved Power Technology” (IPT). The Nº53 contains four separate switching amplifiers that are time-interleaved so that the dead bands resulting from one stage are “filled in” by the other amplifiers that are conducting current at the moment the other amplifier is experiencing a dead band. There’s never a time in which a transistor in one of the amplifiers isn’t conducting. The problem of transistors destroying themselves if both transistors in a complementary pair are turned on at the same time is obviated because the transistors that are turned on simultaneously are in entirely separate amplifiers.
Each of these four amplifiers operates at a switching frequency (the speed at which the transistors are turned on and off) of 1MHz, which, when combined through the time-interleaving technique, results in an effective switching frequency of a whopping 4MHz. A side benefit of this interleaving trick is that the high switching frequency shifts the switching noise to a higher frequency which can be filtered more benignly. Indeed, the Nº53 has a bandwidth of 100kHz, which is remarkable for a switching amplifier. In most switching amplifiers the analog output filter’s cut-off frequency is an octave or so above the audioband."

david

 

[amirm]

Editorialize as much you like Amir, I don't really care (edit) nor do I need the words of a 3rd party to tell me what to think . I know exactly what the No.53 sounds like and I think its crap, you're entitled to your opinions.

How do you know exactly what it sounds like?

And yes it is a typical class D sound and it has switching power supplies under any name you wish to give it;

"The Nº53 solves the dead-band problem through a patented and proprietary technology called “Interleaved Power Technology” (IPT). The Nº53 contains four separate switching amplifiers that are time-interleaved so that the dead bands resulting from one stage are “filled in” by the other amplifiers that are conducting current at the moment the other amplifier is experiencing a dead band. There’s never a time in which a transistor in one of the amplifiers isn’t conducting. The problem of transistors destroying themselves if both transistors in a complementary pair are turned on at the same time is obviated because the transistors that are turned on simultaneously are in entirely separate amplifiers.
Each of these four amplifiers operates at a switching frequency (the speed at which the transistors are turned on and off) of 1MHz, which, when combined through the time-interleaving technique, results in an effective switching frequency of a whopping 4MHz. A side benefit of this interleaving trick is that the high switching frequency shifts the switching noise to a higher frequency which can be filtered more benignly. Indeed, the Nº53 has a bandwidth of 100kHz, which is remarkable for a switching amplifier. In most switching amplifiers the analog output filter’s cut-off frequency is an octave or so above the audioband."

david

And where was the reference to the power *supply* David? All amplifiers have a power supply and an amplifier section. What you post above is the amplifier section. Which by the way, is not the same as class D amplifies. It uses phase interleaving to provide 4X higher frequency without having to run at that frequency. That's why it can give you 100 Khz bandwidth.

On the power supply, the 53 shares the same design as the ML 532 linear amplifier. It is 100% linear. From the technical brochure:

"The power supply includes a large capacity toroidal power transformer (pictured at
bottom center in the photo above), which carries a raw power capacity rating of 2.8 kVA.
For the ?53, the power transformer is conservatively de-rated to a more reasonable
1.065 kVA, to ensure long term operational stability and lower thermal operational limits
to conform to electrical safety compliance requirements.

In addition to 188,000µF of local capacitance in the main power supply section, the
?53 power amplifier boards feature an additional 105,600µF of local capacitance, for a
total of 293,600µF capacitance (146,800µF per voltage rail), for a combined storage
capacity of approximately 680 Joules."

That is why it weighs 135 pounds for each monoblock. If it used switchmode power supplies, it would way a fraction of that.

Using linear power supply avoids beat frequencies between it and the amp switching frequencies. And provides softer limiting. It comes at a huge cost though. One is the above weight. The other is heat. The 53 while never hot, does cook and run warm (it is temperature stabilized).

 

[ddk]

How do you know exactly what it sounds like?


And where was the reference to the power *supply* David? All amplifiers have a power supply and an amplifier section. What you post above is the amplifier section. Which by the way, is not the same as class D amplifies. It uses phase interleaving to provide 4X higher frequency without having to run at that frequency. That's why it can give you 100 Khz bandwidth.

On the power supply, the 53 shares the same design as the ML 532 linear amplifier. It is 100% linear. From the technical brochure:

"The power supply includes a large capacity toroidal power transformer (pictured at
bottom center in the photo above), which carries a raw power capacity rating of 2.8 kVA.
For the ?53, the power transformer is conservatively de-rated to a more reasonable
1.065 kVA, to ensure long term operational stability and lower thermal operational limits
to conform to electrical safety compliance requirements.

In addition to 188,000µF of local capacitance in the main power supply section, the
?53 power amplifier boards feature an additional 105,600µF of local capacitance, for a
total of 293,600µF capacitance (146,800µF per voltage rail), for a combined storage
capacity of approximately 680 Joules."

That is why it weighs 135 pounds for each monoblock. If it used switchmode power supplies, it would way a fraction of that.

Using linear power supply avoids beat frequencies between it and the amp switching frequencies. And provides softer limiting. It comes at a huge cost though. One is the above weight. The other is heat. The 53 while never hot, does cook and run warm (it is temperature stabilized).

Sorry, I meant switching amplifier not power supply, typing too fast and thinking about linear designs.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Wow just landed in India and found the thread's got so noisy that blizzard joined in too

 

[Blizzard]

Wow just landed in India and found the thread's got so noisy that blizzard joined in too

I thought I'd throw in the tube comment just for you

 

[spiritofmusic]

Blizzard, I love your comments, honestly. Esp when you rile the people who rile me LOL. I'm not a tech head in any way, prefer SET to SS, prefer vinyl to digital etc etc. And I love your descending on this forum and putting a few noses out of joints like your cost effective Lampi mod.
But if you really feel you can produce a digital SS amp, w/algorithms that will allow switchable choices for different kinds of tube distortion, I think you're mistaken. Not that you believe it, but that your hypothesis is true.
This is one area where you need to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Just go ahead and make it. Should be pretty simple. According to you, there must be any numbers of distortion types that can be measured and hence recreated/impersonated. Add a few buttons on the front of this "amp for all listeners" to choose btwn "pristine SS sound", "poor SS sound", "average SS sound", "warm SS sound", "ascerbic SS sound", "45 sound", "845 sound", "211 sound", "300 sound", and any number of combinations.
Of course you won't. There won't be a market, will be thus too pricey too contemplate, and more importantly, in the final analysis, I believe there won't be a consistent thing for you to measure for you to try and emulate and add to the signal to produce these impersonations.
So, all power to you w/the Lampi mods etc that you're doing. These are up and running, and people can right now hear the differences.
But declaring that the tube sound is a readilly identifiable and measurable distortion, that you can sample/measure/recreate/incorporate/sample into SS sound and just offer it to us, so that your new SS amp sounds identical to all of our favourite tube amps when that button is pressed, doesn't do you any favours.
But as I said, I'm not a tech head, blah blah...
Cue blizzard of righteousness to follow .

 

[Blizzard]

Blizzard, I love your comments, honestly. Esp when you rile the people who rile me LOL. I'm not a tech head in any way, prefer SET to SS, prefer vinyl to digital etc etc. And I love your descending on this forum and putting a few noses out of joints like your cost effective Lampi mod.
But if you really feel you can produce a digital SS amp, w/algorithms that will allow switchable choices for different kinds of tube distortion, I think you're mistaken. Not that you believe it, but that your hypothesis is true.
This is one area where you need to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Just go ahead and make it. Should be pretty simple. According to you, there must be any numbers of distortion types that can be measured and hence recreated/impersonated. Add a few buttons on the front of this "amp for all listeners" to choose btwn "pristine SS sound", "poor SS sound", "average SS sound", "warm SS sound", "ascerbic SS sound", "45 sound", "845 sound", "211 sound", "300 sound", and any number of combinations.
Of course you won't. There won't be a market, will be thus too pricey too contemplate, and more importantly, in the final analysis, I believe there won't be a consistent thing for you to measure for you to try and emulate and add to the signal to produce these impersonations.
So, all power to you w/the Lampi mods etc that you're doing. These are up and running, and people can right now hear the differences.
But declaring that the tube sound is a readilly identifiable and measurable distortion, that you can sample/measure/recreate/incorporate/sample into SS sound and just offer it to us, so that your new SS amp sounds identical to all of our favourite tube amps when that button is pressed, doesn't do you any favours.
But as I said, I'm not a tech head, blah blah...
Cue blizzard of righteousness to follow .

Don't get me wrong. I like distortion. When it's coming out of a Marshall stack with a Les Paul connected to it

The ideal SS amp isn't one with a "sound"at all. It just makes what's connected to it louder and that's it. Even when we start to see audio gear with tube emulation profiles, tube guys won't be interested. The reason why is they won't have the emotional attachment like those warm glowing tubes. It would have to be hidden behind a curtain with the listener thinking it was actually tubes in order for it to be acknowledged. Or have fake tubes glowing in the top.

Anyway why you don't think it can be done with SOTA 64bit floating point DSP, is only because you're unfamiliar with what this technology can do. The only catch is it has to be a super clean straight wire with gain amp to pull it off. Hypex Ncore fits this bill quite fine.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Blizz, when is it coming to market? I'll really consider buying it. Honestly. If someone, you, anyone, can make a 300+W/ch into 8 Ohms, 600W into 4, biamp mode hopefully, so that it can drive any spkr, from poor eff Apogees to super eff horns. And then at the switch of a button, I can get all this SS power to sound EXACTLY like SETs, I'll be in Seventh Heaven. This'll mean I can get the sound I'm devoted to able to drive any load out there. Why wouldn't anyone want that?
Reminds me of debates that happened in the dog days of cd, where people bullishly claimed they could get digital to emulate/copy/sound identical to vinyl. Hmm, never quite happened, did it.
Maybe you can explain why, or are you also saying 64 bits doo dahs can make vinyl and digital sound identical - cue curtain to put the gear behind, we wouldn't want us expectation bias chumps being skeptical when we don't see an lp spinning around.
While we're at it, maybe you, or someone, can produce an amp that has every other amp 'sound' sampled into it. Would be great at a flick of a switch to go "Krell sound", "Lamm sound", "Dartzeel sound".
I'm not being facetious - you're the one claiming things can be manipulated at a 64 bit level, why stop at just emulating SET distortion?
Maybe while this futile mental exercise is being played out, we can get this amp to straighten out the distortion present in all those classic guitar albums. I'd sure love to hear Page's tube amp resonant guitar on Led Zep 2 sound like he was using ProTools, instead of all that lovely pot-fuelled, tube-driven fuzzy loveliness.

 

[Purite Audio]

Here we have Class D ,Mola Mola which are definitely my current favourite, we also tried SPEC a Japanese brand, but their designs had a couple of issues , which the manufacturer wouldn't or couldn't correct.
We also use Bakoon, which are A/B I have a valve input /vfet output designed by a friend ,and in the past we have had single ended,parallel single ended and push pull designs.
It is intersting to compare, I don't really fel there are huge differences between A/B and Class D, provided both can drive the loudspeaker properly, as soon as valves are introduced the differences are far more explicit.
Keith.

 

[Blizzard]

Blizz, when is it coming to market? I'll really consider buying it. Honestly. If someone, you, anyone, can make a 300+W/ch into 8 Ohms, 600W into 4, biamp mode hopefully, so that it can drive any spkr, from poor eff Apogees to super eff horns. And then at the switch of a button, I can get all this SS power to sound EXACTLY like SETs, I'll be in Seventh Heaven. This'll mean I can get the sound I'm devoted to able to drive any load out there. Why wouldn't anyone want that?
Reminds me of debates that happened in the dog days of cd, where people bullishly claimed they could get digital to emulate/copy/sound identical to vinyl. Hmm, never quite happened, did it.
Maybe you can explain why, or are you also saying 64 bits doo dahs can make vinyl and digital sound identical - cue curtain to put the gear behind, we wouldn't want us expectation bias chumps being skeptical when we don't see an lp spinning around.
While we're at it, maybe you, or someone, can produce an amp that has every other amp 'sound' sampled into it. Would be great at a flick of a switch to go "Krell sound", "Lamm sound", "Dartzeel sound".
I'm not being facetious - you're the one claiming things can be manipulated at a 64 bit level, why stop at just emulating SET distortion?
Maybe while this futile mental exercise is being played out, we can get this amp to straighten out the distortion present in all those classic guitar albums. I'd sure love to hear Page's tube amp resonant guitar on Led Zep 2 sound like he was using ProTools, instead of all that lovely pot-fuelled, tube-driven fuzzy loveliness.

Digital technology has come a long ways. You couldn't do it before, because technology wasn't as advanced in the past as it is today. Just like we couldn't fly in airplanes before they were invented, or drive a car before cars were invented.


And yes you're right. Any sound signature can be emulated. Just take a small measurement from the analog output of whatever you're trying to emulate, process it through the emulation engine, and it will emulate the sound.

 

[ddk]

Don't get me wrong. I like distortion. When it's coming out of a Marshall stack with a Les Paul connected to it

The ideal SS amp isn't one with a "sound"at all. It just makes what's connected to it louder and that's it. Even when we start to see audio gear with tube emulation profiles, tube guys won't be interested. The reason why is they won't have the emotional attachment like those warm glowing tubes. It would have to be hidden behind a curtain with the listener thinking it was actually tubes in order for it to be acknowledged. Or have fake tubes glowing in the top.

Not always that simplistic Mike. I guess in the heat of the snowball fight I left out some needed clarification. Personally I find the best SET amps the most appealing but that's not about tubes vs ss. When comparing other linear topologies I often end up choosing ss electronics over tube ones, specially when looking at amplification over 100 watts. Class D is another story, while not my first choice I think that a certain price point and with some speakers its highly competitive and maybe unbeatable but at $50k I find nothing special or different about the sound of the No.53 from other better class D electronics, hence my harsh criticism of it.

david

 

[Blizzard]

Not always that simplistic Mike. I guess in the heat of the snowball fight I left out some needed clarification. Personally I find the best SET amps the most appealing but that's not about tubes vs ss. When comparing other linear topologies I often end up choosing ss electronics over tube ones, specially when looking at amplification over 100 watts. Class D is another story, while not my first choice I think that a certain price point and with some speakers its highly competitive and maybe unbeatable but at $50k I find nothing special or different about the sound of the No.53 from other better class D electronics, hence my harsh criticism of it.

david

What have your heard for amps that are fully discrete class A/Hypex Ncore class D hybrids?

 

[ddk]

What have your heard for amps that are fully discrete class A/Hypex Ncore class D hybrids?

Direct experience only with the NAD and Mola Mola (not sure if its Hypex Ncore) at different venues.

david

 

[Blizzard]

Direct experience only with the NAD and Mola Mola (not sure if its Hypex Ncore) at different venues.

david

The NAD is mediocre using IC voltage regs and IC opamp input buffers. But great for the price. Some don't like the Mola Mola because it's designed for extreme raw accuracy. My thoughts are combining the finest pure class A fully discrete circuits in the input stage, with class D output, is the best of all worlds. Best I've heard yet. It would probably make you change your mind about class D.

 

[ddk]

The NAD is mediocre using IC voltage regs and IC opamp input buffers. But great for the price. Some don't like the Mola Mola because it's designed for extreme raw accuracy. My thoughts are combining the finest pure class A fully discrete circuits in the input stage, with class D output, is the best of all worlds. Best I've heard yet. It would probably make you change your mind about class D.

Maybe, if such an animal ever comes to life... I've read some of your posts Mike, we approach this hobby from different perspectives and our definitions of extreme "accuracy" doesn't have the same meaning either .

david

 

[thekong]

Digital technology has come a long ways. You couldn't do it before, because technology wasn't as advanced in the past as it is today. Just like we couldn't fly in airplanes before they were invented, or drive a car before cars were invented.

And yes you're right. Any sound signature can be emulated. Just take a small measurement from the analog output of whatever you're trying to emulate, process it through the emulation engine, and it will emulate the sound.

While that may be true, we have also seen exaggeration on what digital technology could do in the past, remember Perfect Sound For Ever? I don’t know if it can be done with the current digital technology, but I shall remain skeptical until I hear it with my own ears!

As for emulating other amps’ sound, that is also nothing new, Carver claimed to be able to do just that back in the 1980’s, and without digital processing I believe.