Apogee Full range
- Thread starter bonzo75
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Hello Brian!
Can you please give us an update on your TSW Full Range system?
Which cross-over configuration and which amplifiers are you using now?
Can you please give us an update on your TSW Full Range system?
Which cross-over configuration and which amplifiers are you using now?
Hello Ron,
Thanks for asking, but I have nothing new to report regarding my TSW FR system. I have reached a level of satisfaction where I have been enjoying it more than improving it. It is by far the best sound I have enjoyed in my decades of audiophilia. Yes, I will be working on improvements soon, and I will report how these go. Also, an on-going pool/deck/outdoor kitchen project has stolen my priorities, at least temporarily.
I am still running a pair of Audio Research D-250 MkII Servo amps with doubled power supply reserves, one stereo amp bi-amplifying each speaker. I use the Apogee passive line-level crossover, with StealthCap upgrades, but otherwise stock, into the stock Apogee interface boxes. The only exception is that I do not use the bass transformers in those boxes. The ARC amps seem happy to drive the 1.7 ohm woofers directly from their 4-ohm taps. I tried the 1-ohm taps but I think the 4-ohm taps work better.
As a spin-off from the electrical work required for my backyard project, I am about to run four separate circuits of 240 volts, plus two dedicated 120 volt circuits to the listening room, all wired with over-gauge wire. The ARC amps can be reconfigured for 240 volts. The reduced line impedance and voltage variations ought to be an improvement. Each ARC amp draws 900 Watts at idle. The two amps have to be on separate 120 volt breakers even now because the first crescendo will pop a shared breaker. I think they’ll breath a lot easier on their own 240 volt circuits. I think switching over to 240 volts where components are compatible and convertible to that voltage is a largely un-tapped area of improvement for American audiophiles. It would even cost less than many tweaks. By the way, this is an inherent advantage that our European friends have over us Yankees that you don’t hear a lot about. I don’t know what gauge wires are routinely used in Euro 230 volt circuits though. Can a Euro member report on typical 230 volt circuit wire gauges?
But there is a big future project in the works that I will tease about. I have been working on a new design for a large power amp in the 500-watt (at 8-ohms) class. These will use solid-state balanced bridge output stages running in deep levels of class A and with huge power supplies. But the kicker will be the front end, which is a unique vacuum tube design, directly coupled at DC with no caps in the signal path. The gain stage is a unique triode topology that minimizes distortion without feedback. Think of something like a beefed-up Krell KRS 200 amp with tubes for the gain stages. I can’t promise when these will be ready for audition.
I also have a unique design for an amp for directly driving the 0.15 to 0.2 ohm midrange ribbons, the most brutal of all Apogee drivers (hence the stock step-down transformers, which are quite good, by the way.) The design that I have in mind will literally drive 50 to 75 amperes into a dead short circuit, a proverbial screwdriver across the terminals, without even the least bit of distress. It’s based on an entirely different concept than the usual audio amps. If it works and sounds better than transformers, I might make limited runs if a few Apogee users are interested.
I guess that was my long-winded way of saying “nothing new”.
Thanks for asking, but I have nothing new to report regarding my TSW FR system. I have reached a level of satisfaction where I have been enjoying it more than improving it. It is by far the best sound I have enjoyed in my decades of audiophilia. Yes, I will be working on improvements soon, and I will report how these go. Also, an on-going pool/deck/outdoor kitchen project has stolen my priorities, at least temporarily.
I am still running a pair of Audio Research D-250 MkII Servo amps with doubled power supply reserves, one stereo amp bi-amplifying each speaker. I use the Apogee passive line-level crossover, with StealthCap upgrades, but otherwise stock, into the stock Apogee interface boxes. The only exception is that I do not use the bass transformers in those boxes. The ARC amps seem happy to drive the 1.7 ohm woofers directly from their 4-ohm taps. I tried the 1-ohm taps but I think the 4-ohm taps work better.
As a spin-off from the electrical work required for my backyard project, I am about to run four separate circuits of 240 volts, plus two dedicated 120 volt circuits to the listening room, all wired with over-gauge wire. The ARC amps can be reconfigured for 240 volts. The reduced line impedance and voltage variations ought to be an improvement. Each ARC amp draws 900 Watts at idle. The two amps have to be on separate 120 volt breakers even now because the first crescendo will pop a shared breaker. I think they’ll breath a lot easier on their own 240 volt circuits. I think switching over to 240 volts where components are compatible and convertible to that voltage is a largely un-tapped area of improvement for American audiophiles. It would even cost less than many tweaks. By the way, this is an inherent advantage that our European friends have over us Yankees that you don’t hear a lot about. I don’t know what gauge wires are routinely used in Euro 230 volt circuits though. Can a Euro member report on typical 230 volt circuit wire gauges?
But there is a big future project in the works that I will tease about. I have been working on a new design for a large power amp in the 500-watt (at 8-ohms) class. These will use solid-state balanced bridge output stages running in deep levels of class A and with huge power supplies. But the kicker will be the front end, which is a unique vacuum tube design, directly coupled at DC with no caps in the signal path. The gain stage is a unique triode topology that minimizes distortion without feedback. Think of something like a beefed-up Krell KRS 200 amp with tubes for the gain stages. I can’t promise when these will be ready for audition.
I also have a unique design for an amp for directly driving the 0.15 to 0.2 ohm midrange ribbons, the most brutal of all Apogee drivers (hence the stock step-down transformers, which are quite good, by the way.) The design that I have in mind will literally drive 50 to 75 amperes into a dead short circuit, a proverbial screwdriver across the terminals, without even the least bit of distress. It’s based on an entirely different concept than the usual audio amps. If it works and sounds better than transformers, I might make limited runs if a few Apogee users are interested.
I guess that was my long-winded way of saying “nothing new”.
Brian, an outside shot for me might be Duettas or Scintillas. Would your "take no prisoners" approach be applicable to these?
I believe Duettas are only single amped, but Scintillas can be bi amped, and the Scintilla mids and treble ribbons are equally as punishing on amps as the FR mids ribbon.
I believe Duettas are only single amped, but Scintillas can be bi amped, and the Scintilla mids and treble ribbons are equally as punishing on amps as the FR mids ribbon.
I don’t see why not, especially with the 1-ohm Scintillas.
Side note: I have been involved in electronics industries my entire adult life, both as design engineer and as a head honcho. I have always loved audio but never attempted to offer anything commercially in audio because the hi-end “industry” is so minuscule, and shrinking. But now that I am semi-retired I might be interested in a boutique audio business, mostly for fun - if I thought I had something truly better to offer. Maybe these amps could be a start.
Thank you very much for the detailed update, Brian! I am glad you achieved happiness with the amplification and crossovers of your system, so now you can mostly enjoy listening to music!
The amplifier projects seem very exciting!
The amplifier projects seem very exciting!
Brian, any move to Apogees for me is hampered by the demands of my room, intrinsic desire to keep a tubes flavour in my system, and in effect the conundrum this puts on running inefficient ribbons.
At 800 sq ft and 5500 cub ft, my 18x48 room is challenging even my true 101dB eff spkrs off 70W SETs. Only the 300W Class D subs in my spkrs truly energises the room.
So to even think that the same 70W tubes could do the same w challenging Duettas or uber challenging Scintillas is just asking for trouble. I'm not even sure my amps brand TOTL 170W/ch will do the business.
And I'm loathe to run multiple SETs, the heat is challenging enough as it is.
So if you feel you have an "iron fist (bulletproof SS) in a velvet (tubes output stage)" hybrid amp design that could easily drive Duettas or Scintillas to truly saturate my kind of space, that would be one less major hurdle to negotiate in considering Apogees here.
At 800 sq ft and 5500 cub ft, my 18x48 room is challenging even my true 101dB eff spkrs off 70W SETs. Only the 300W Class D subs in my spkrs truly energises the room.
So to even think that the same 70W tubes could do the same w challenging Duettas or uber challenging Scintillas is just asking for trouble. I'm not even sure my amps brand TOTL 170W/ch will do the business.
And I'm loathe to run multiple SETs, the heat is challenging enough as it is.
So if you feel you have an "iron fist (bulletproof SS) in a velvet (tubes output stage)" hybrid amp design that could easily drive Duettas or Scintillas to truly saturate my kind of space, that would be one less major hurdle to negotiate in considering Apogees here.
My room is about 18.2’ x 26’ x 12’ H. It clocks in at about 5500 cu ft. But the back wall and part of the rear left wall are irregular and open up to a much larger part of my house; so the 26’ dimension is not completely descriptive.
I think the key here is that I listen fairly closely to the FRs relative to the room dimensions. The FRs are about 6’ from the wall behind them, while my listening position is now about 9’ away from the center of an imaginary line between the speakers. This puts my ears about 11’ away from the wall behind me. The speakers are visually so large that you feel like they are right on top of you like gigantic headphones, but I have found that this position works well, as have others. It balances direct versus reflected energy. I am not saying that I have found the precisely optimum positioning in my room yet, but certainly a listenable sweet spot that made me stop moving 300 pound monoliths around for a while.
It may be an exaggeration to say this, but I suppose you could play big panels in a gymnasium so long as you stayed fairly close to them.
My point is that if you locate your listening position similarly to mine, you won’t need to worry about what the sound is like 48’ feet away. It stands a good chance of sounding glorious with the longer delayed reflections.
A FR lover who goes by the handle “gallant-diva” has a very long room too. He pulls his speakers about 40% out in his room and sits relatively closely. He thinks that is optimum after a lot of experimentation. You might Google for him on several forums.
I am loathe to make claims about rotisserie chicken when the eggs haven’t been laid yet. But, yes, that is my goal and hope, buoyed by listening to elements of the designs in prototype form. I can keep you posted here if there is any interest.
Marc, I will be very curious for Brian’s answer, but we know we have very good answers to your question: Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse and the Lamm hybrid amplifiers.
If I had not pursued the Pendragons I likely would have ordered Full Ranges from True Sound Works, and driven the speakers with high-power all-tube or high-power hybrid amps.
Look at Bohne. An Apogee like ribbon with huge cones.
More bass balls and weight than any Apogee panel could ever muster at higher SPL with the compromise being loss of definition and outright speed. Damned impressive at Munich they will destroy your floorboards with their matching subs
Ron, w my room, max ht of spkrs is 5-5.5', so Duettas or Scintillas only
And w my room dims, I have unlimited flexibility of placement, and relative seat position.
But w the strides I'm making on Zus/subs integration, marrying true room saturation on lower mids, bass and sub bass, and full agility higher up, the dilemma as always w Apogees is to ensure I can replicate the same and then go beyond.
Spectral monos on Kondo pre into TSW Divas in a 40x30x15 room, ie 50% bigger than mine just struggled on the energisation front.
All sizzle, no steak.
And w my room dims, I have unlimited flexibility of placement, and relative seat position.
But w the strides I'm making on Zus/subs integration, marrying true room saturation on lower mids, bass and sub bass, and full agility higher up, the dilemma as always w Apogees is to ensure I can replicate the same and then go beyond.
Spectral monos on Kondo pre into TSW Divas in a 40x30x15 room, ie 50% bigger than mine just struggled on the energisation front.
All sizzle, no steak.
Your Diva audition disaster is a total anomaly. Rather than basing your thinking on it you should do the opposite and drop it from your data set.
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