Apogee Full range

[Final]

Great post and I know some forum members who have heard Divas with precisely this problem

A very good post indeed.

Another good way to check if left and right woofer is in phase with each other is to simply measure with a SPL meter.
When out of Phase the SPL will fall with several Db. Check SPL with borth woofers connected playing a bass tone, then change left and right posts on one of the woofers. The lowest SPL will indicate that the woofers our out of Phase with each other.

This is clearly audible, but measuring is safer. I actually measure with my Iphone and sound measure app from Faber accoustics. Its more precise than free apps. However a worthwhile investment when battling audiodemons.

This procedure can also be done with MR and TW playing a tone within the midrange or treble. Such tones are easy to obtain, just google online tone generator.

Christian

 

[microstrip]

My experience and preference is pretty much the same as yours, I find light vintage paper cones a lot faster more dynamic and natural than any other cone materials I’ve heard. Unfortunately the modern variants don’t have the same sensitivity and agility of vintage cones and sound mechanical in comparison. Still prefer aluminum to Be diaphragms, never heard a Ti one.

david

It is really a pity that at a time we have extremely powerful magnets at cheap prices the modern variants are less efficiency. Which specific vintage paper cones do you prefer (besides the Klangsfilm, please )?

 

[Brian Beck]

... This procedure can also be done with MR and TW playing a tone within the midrange or treble. Such tones are easy to obtain, just google online tone generator.

Christian

Sure, pure tones can work. The reason I recommended noise is that pure tones will set up standing waves with peaks and nulls in the room. If you move your head even a little bit the perceived loudness will vary a lot, due to reflections, even between left and right ear. This might confuse the results for some folks. With noise (pink or white) there is an integrating-out (averaging) effect that eliminates these effects and makes it easy to pick the correct phase connection. Noise sources can be from test CDs, on-line downloads (I presume), FM tuner interstation noise, even a phono stage with open inputs and the gain turned up. But always set the source to be monaural.

Also, of course, music can be used, monaural if possible, but that works best for whole speaker polarity detection. For individual drivers noise gives a more steady test sound.

As “cjfrbw” said here, once it has been experienced, most listeners can identify “out-of-phase” speakers in the first bars of music. I recall walking into audio stores several times and hearing speakers connected wrong, in lower-end shops mainly.

 

[Brian Beck]

...we need a separate thread ...

Somehow this Apogee thread devolved into a discussion of field coils and paper cones

 

[audioguy]

A very good post indeed.

Another good way to check if left and right woofer is in phase with each other is to simply measure with a SPL meter.
When out of Phase the SPL will fall with several Db. Check SPL with borth woofers connected playing a bass tone, then change left and right posts on one of the woofers. The lowest SPL will indicate that the woofers our out of Phase with each other.

This is clearly audible, but measuring is safer. I actually measure with my Iphone and sound measure app from Faber accoustics. Its more precise than free apps. However a worthwhile investment when battling audiodemons.

This procedure can also be done with MR and TW playing a tone within the midrange or treble. Such tones are easy to obtain, just google online tone generator.

Christian

Or, if you are addicted to gadgets, as I am, get THE CRICKET POLARITY TESTER.

Easy to check polarity of individual drivers (or check if interconnect cables are wired correctly). I use this when I do room calibration and for multi-channel music/movie setups. You will be amazed (or maybe not) how many well known manufacturers intentionally set one (or more) drivers out of phase with others in the same speaker. And even more surprised to find multi-channel rooms where someone "goofed" and wired one of speakers out of phase. My current speakers (Triad) and previous (Wilson Grand Slams) had drivers out of phase.

One can never be too careful!

 

[Final]

Nice Gadget, should be mandatory for Apogee refurbishers and owners

 

[LL21]

Or, if you are addicted to gadgets, as I am, get THE CRICKET POLARITY TESTER.

Easy to check polarity of individual drivers (or check if interconnect cables are wired correctly). I use this when I do room calibration and for multi-channel music/movie setups. You will be amazed (or maybe not) how many well known manufacturers intentionally set one (or more) drivers out of phase with others in the same speaker. And even more surprised to find multi-channel rooms where someone "goofed" and wired one of speakers out of phase. My current speakers (Triad) and previous (Wilson Grand Slams) had drivers out of phase.

One can never be too careful!

Interesting...what did you do with your Wilsons Grand Slamms when you found out they had drivers out of phase? Are you saying this was a specific design feature or a mistake? And did you make any adjustments for this in the end? (Sorry...can see this is an Apogee thread...which I have been enjoying reading...but saw this comment and had to ask!)

 

[andromedaaudio]

IT is not a mistake, i do IT too on purpose , x over components induce a phaseshift you can correct that by wiring a driver out of phase

 

[LL21]

IT is not a mistake, i do IT too on purpose , x over components induce a phaseshift you can correct that by wiring a driver out of phase

Got it. Thanks!

 

[rooze]

Great thread!
Brings back some old memories....Great to see that Florian still has his Grands and that Rich Murray is still refurbing FR's.

It makes me want to get back into it all

Rooze

 

[morricab]

IT is not a mistake, i do IT too on purpose , x over components induce a phaseshift you can correct that by wiring a driver out of phase

If your filter is a 2nd order butterworth or L-R, then it is 180° phase shifted between the LP and HP, otherwise it is probably not advisable to invert.

 

[morricab]

Speakers are very much a victim of sounding a bit like the materials the drive units are made from. Go to the kitchen a flick a piece of aluminium foil. There is and will be some of the nature of that sound in any aluminium driver I believe. That you didn't hear it in the full range doesn't mean it isn't there, it will present itself with the right material.

I think the reality is that the Kapton backed foil drivers actually damp this, and indeed it does. Flicking a Duetta MRT ribbon sounds far less metallic than flicking bare aluminium foil.

The standard Duetta crossover doesn't compensate for a quite pronounced rise in FR at around 3-4KHz, and that tends to emphasise any 'metallic" feeling in the playback sound. I modified the circuit to eliminate this emphasis, replacing the restorer's components with much more expensive components (much larger inductor etc). This IMHO is a substantial improvement (neither Mark or Ked has heard it).

However, I believe this driver produces the highest degree of subjective resolution out there, pretty much. Sometimes (all the time, really) it is just astonishing. I also believe that some of the tendency towards 'metallic' replay is unquestionably due to the source components. Poor quality solid state amps are particularly guilty of this.

Using a Lampizator Big 7, you can tune this out by valve choice to a greater or lesser degree. A particularly great choice for this is the Sylvania VT-52. The Tung-Sol 6A3 is also a fine choice. The KR PX4 is actually a poor choice, it's mid verges on hyper detailing that sounds really impressive for a while but becomes tiresome over time.

But the real shock I have just had is using a £89 battery operated NOS DAC from Starting Point Systems. This thing is just super relaxed, as if any trace of grain and tendency towards 'metallicness' has been completely removed. The trouble is it is also rather boring sounding, getting literally killed by the Lampi for detail resolution, dynamics and 3D soundstage.

It leaves you seriously asking what is going on, though. If this little French cheapo DAC is so good in this area, it can't all be down to the ribbon. And I believe it isn't.

Maybe the laid back dynamics don't accelerate the ribbon to the point of it breaking up so often...just a hypothesis... Surprising that a NOS DAC is boring...I guess it is not R2R for such a low price.

 

[audioguy]

Interesting...what did you do with your Wilsons Grand Slamms when you found out they had drivers out of phase? Are you saying this was a specific design feature or a mistake? And did you make any adjustments for this in the end? (Sorry...can see this is an Apogee thread...which I have been enjoying reading...but saw this comment and had to ask!)

The Wilsons (as are my Triads) wired that way intentionally. You would have to ask Dave Wilson why that was the case and Triad told me but I can't recall the specifics. So that is how they stayed!!

 

[Zero000]

Full Range mega auction including stacks of classic gear.

 

[bonzo75]

Wow - JL Gotham g213 Dual 13.5-inch Powered Subwoofers 3,800 watts internal amps (each unit)) Go down to 19Hz—-Pristine Used with Pass XVR-1 3 way crossover- crossed at 50Hz

(2) pairs-4 chassis’s VTL Wotan 1250’s with new 6550’s plus spares-checked out and upgraded by VTL. One pr could not be upgraded to full power turn on and therefore it’s a two stage process to turn on the amplifiers. 1250 watts per amp in tetrode and 750 watts in triode.

With subs a total of 10,200 watts!!!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, play those in your Central London apartment, and then invite your neighbours over for tea .

 

[Zero000]

It actually looks to be good value (well, maybe) - the list of extra kit is crazy - Cello Palette pre and power, Day Sequerra, Marantz 10B, Quicksliver, various R2R machines, tapes and reels...

I with Mark, Ked, buy it all dump it in the flat and turn it up to 11. Sure you won't be able to move for kit but the neighbours will love you.

 

[Brian Beck]

Geesh! And I thought I was a collector. I need to show that list to my wife...

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think it is a very good deal. Many of the pieces could be sold off.

Kedar - you would have your FRs and two pairs of 1250w Wotans would allow the FRs to be driven with tubes!

 

[microstrip]

Checking with more care after the initial "wow", it seems to me that only a few items are really interesting or collectible - most are items that we can find easily at the usual used equipment sites.