Apogee Full range

[thekong]

If you are thinking of driving the Duetta Sig fullrange with a single amp, personally, I would like no less than 150W, preferably over 200W, of tube power!

Of course, that is just IMHO !

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes, but some opinions have more credance based on day to day experience of using them. Ie yours.
I do feel that this is not too far removed from "SET-friendly" not being the same as "SET-optimal".

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes and there is this guy in Nottingam with CJ Premier 8s, Kondo pre, Kondo dac, CLO TLX, and SME. He has older Duetta Sigs, not as good as Justin's

CJ premier 8, 275W/ch.
Bonzo, can you point to anyone in the UK running Graz Apogees w/SET amps as opposed to high Wattage ss or tubes?
I'm very happy to travel to Justin, but his pwrful Accuphase/digital streaming setup won't be in my comfort zone.
I've learnt that Graz doesn't design his restorations testing them w/SETs (other than Definitives) and can pass NO opinion as to whether they sound good prwd this way.

 

[Argonaut]

BolloX to it LoL!!!

 

[Zero000]

OK - Kedar getting the facts wrong - first off Justin did NOT stubbornly drive his Duetta Sigs with an 80 Watt Air Tight amp. I used that with some Martin Logan Ascents for a while.

However, Justin HAS probably tried 25 different amps on his Apogees to try and find the best option. For all of that time, he used a pair of 80 Watt Austria Analogue 211 monoblocks, trying to find an amp that bettered them.

He failed to find anything better. Here's a few he tried:

Parasound A21 - 450 Watts into 4 Ohms. Excellent solid state amp for the money. One of the best but just too much to listen to long term. Definitely the most exciting amp ever to hit my Apogees. Outstanding dynamics, grip and control.

Rowland 301 monos. Expensive class D. Not my bag a bit bland compared to the 211s.

Various Krells - 250a, KSA50, KSA300. KSA300 the best of them.

Merrill Hypex NC1200 monos. 700 Watts into 4 Ohms. Just dreadful. Really.

A Hypex NC400 DIY effort made by Jon Oakey, with linear PS and JFET stage. Actually really good best class D I have heard.

W4S 500 Watt monos on the bass with 211s monos driving the mid/treble and two TVCs. Amazing actually all in the room reporting that the walls had disappeared!!!

Graaf 50/50 - failed totally to make a listenable sound.

Cheapies - Luxman L435. Behringer A500 (super cheap), Crown XLS1500, Restek Challenger.

Preamps Air Tight ATL-10a passive, EAR868PL, Cayin C100 (excellent), Woo, Restek etc etc

There's some powerful amps there and that is by no means a complete list.

I still thought the 80 Watt 211s the best. However, they can deliver 170 Watts for a short period and weigh 45 KG each. They are seriously good amps.

Marc - I still have the 211s so you can listen to those. But they are not as refined sounding as the Transmitters, which I know well driving Omegas. I seriously rate the NAT Transmitter.

Marc - your Apogees would have better, more powerful magnets than mine anyway as Jon will have to buy new ones.

 

[bonzo75]

Go to Justin's to get a feel of the bass and dynamics. I am not sure why you always keep referring to travels as if you are going out to buy that thing. If you listen to Justin's and the Omegas, and the full range, you will get a very good idea of what you prefer and be able to compare it with the Trios (/duos, of course) and the Liszt. It will be very clear.

 

[Zero000]

Then I got some Accuphase M-60 monos from 1975 and they beat everything so far. Go figure... they seriously make me smile. Fantastic amps!

Jon Oakey is adamant that the latest Graz Kapton backed ribbons are so good that the pure foil ones don't have much of an advantage over Kapton backed. However, that did not use to be the case years ago, I believe. I don't think Jon will do you pure foil Duettas i.e. it is NOT an option.

They are very, very fragile and they blow markedly in a breeze. Kapton backed is definitely much more robust.

 

[spiritofmusic]

OK - Kedar getting the facts wrong - first off Justin did NOT stubbornly drive his Duetta Sigs with an 80 Watt Air Tight amp. I used that with some Martin Logan Ascents for a while.

However, Justin HAS probably tried 25 different amps on his Apogees to try and find the best option. For all of that time, he used a pair of 80 Watt Austria Analogue 211 monoblocks, trying to find an amp that bettered them.

He failed to find anything better. Here's a few he tried:

Parasound A21 - 450 Watts into 4 Ohms. Excellent solid state amp for the money. One of the best but just too much to listen to long term. Definitely the most exciting amp ever to hit my Apogees. Outstanding dymaics, grip and control.

Rowland 301 monos. Expensive class D. Not my bag a bit bland compared to the 211s.

Various Krells - 250a, KSA50, KSA300. KSA300 the best of them.

Merrill Hypex NC1200 monos. 700 Watts into 4 Ohms. Just dreadful. Really.

A Hypex NC400 DIY effort made by Jon Oakey, with linear PS and JFET stage. Actually really good best class D I have heard.

W4S 500 Watt monos on the bass with 211s monos driving the mid/treble and two TVCs. Amazing actually all in the room reporting that the walls had disappeared!!!

Graaf 50/50 - failed totally to make a listenable sound.

Cheapies - Luxman L435. Behringer A500 (super cheap), Crown XLS1500, Restek Challenger.

Preamps Air Tight ATL-10a passive, EAR868PL, Cayin C100 (excellent), Woo, Restek etc etc

There's some powerful amps there and that is by no means a complete list.

I still thought the 80 Watt 211s the best. However, they can deliver 170 Watts for a short period and weigh 45 KG each. They are seriously good amps.

Marc - I still have the 211s so you can listen to those. But they are not as refined sounding as the Transmitters, which I know well driving Omegas. I seriously rate the NAT Transmitter.

Marc - your Apogees would have better, more powerful magnets than mine anyway as Jon will have to buy new ones.

Whew! that's quite a list. I suspect many of the more pwrful SS options provided greater grip and drive than the 211s, but the texture and dimensionality still gave tubes the edge re involvement, immersion etc.
For me, I need to be as certain as I can that any Graz/Oakey-restored Duettas that match yr Interstellars aren't compromised by SETs, and it looks like the Nat Transmitters may be the key. I need to find out from peter whether their specification is conservative or an over estimate.
Other than pure wattage specs, should I investigate voltage requirements of the Apogees and whether Nats are sufficient?

 

[Zero000]

Go to Justin's to get a feel of the bass and dynamics. I am not sure why you always keep referring to travels as if you are going out to buy that thing. If you listen to Justin's and the Omegas, and the full range, you will get a very good idea of what you prefer and be able to compare it with the Trios (/duos, of course) and the Liszt. It will be very clear.

Yes, fret thee not Marc just do this and make your choice.

Trios and bass horns are an extremely convincing act, I have to say. Liszt not for me. Duos OK but Trios / bass horns in another league compared to Duo IMHO.

 

[Zero000]

Whew! that's quite a list. I suspect many of the more pwrful SS options provided greater grip and drive than the 211s, but the texture and dimensionality still gave tubes the edge re involvement, immersion etc.
For me, I need to be as certain as I can that any Graz/Oakey-restored Duettas that match yr Interstellars aren't compromised by SETs, and it looks like the Nat Transmitters may be the key. I need to find out from peter whether their specification is conservative or an over estimate.
Other than pure wattage specs, should I investigate voltage requirements of the Apogees and whether Nats are sufficient?

Marc the NAT will EASILY drive the Interstellas. Don't worry about it. BTW there is no 'R' in Interstella. I dropped it to match Duetta

 

[spiritofmusic]

I may look like I'm fretting, whereas truthfully...I'm having a full-on panic attack!
No, seriously, I'm really enjoying the hunt on final spkr choice.
Funds have opened up, but I don't want/can't justify the prices that eg Liszt or Arrakis/Altair would command, and I actually am not minded to go for a "standard" box choice anymore. Wandering around shows finding the latest uber detailed box/SS package bores me to tears now.
Zus just totally speak to me, but after lots of exposure to AG Duos, I know what they fall short in too (as well as knowing what Duos lack). Trios and Liszts exposure has cemented in me the interest in an alternative to Zu that will excite me in a way no other boxes are likely to. And despite the Maggie 20.7 shortcomings, I got enough from my short exposure to them to know that I really like a lot about that panel presentation too.
So, we have Zus that have never let me down, and the flagship released in the Spring promises to be superb, Trios w/Basshorns which I have no doubt I'll love, and Amphytrions/Graz-Oakey Duettas (Interstellar-spec), both w/Transmitters, in a room that accommodate them all.
The next few months travelling to Frankfurt or Monaco to audition Trios, and travelling to listen to Interstellars, Advance 7s, Omegas, and maybe Munich to hear the new Zus. Then I'll know my decision.

Justin, remember to let me have those dates, thanx again for the invite.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc the NAT will EASILY drive the Interstellas. Don't worry about it. BTW there is no 'R' in Interstella. I dropped it to match Duetta

You have too much free time to think LOL!
Btw, just noticed someone online who in 2009 bought yr Accuphase amps (for $1250) to drive his APOGEE SLANTS, and says they are the best ever! Small world.

 

[Zero000]

You have too much free time to think LOL!
Btw, just noticed someone online who in 2009 bought yr Accuphase amps (for $1250) to drive his APOGEE SLANTS, and says they are the best ever! Small world.

Yeah seen that. Part of the reason for the gamble on them. He's right zero progress really. Outstanding in 1975 and outstanding now.

 

[Zero000]

Justin, remember to let me have those dates, thanx again for the invite.

Will do.

I really think you are totally barking up the right trees, TBH. The speakers you are considering are, in my opinion, all seriously good.

You must have a decent set of ears, LOL!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Will do.

I really think you are totally barking up the right trees, TBH. The speakers you are considering are, in my opinion, all seriously good.

You must have a decent set of ears, LOL!

Haha, thanx!
Bonzo has Golden Ears (on top of his Brass Neck LOL!) , whereas mine are of the cauliflower family
Don't tell him you even partially like Zus, he'll admonish you ad infinitum!

 

[Zero000]

Rummaging through some old pics, from Silverstone 2009. This little Zu/Vacuum State system was ace, I thought.

Ducks for cover...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ooh, now y'r making me nostalgic. Zu Essences. IMHO, the only "misstep" from Zu. They sounded great like all Zus, punching well above their price pt, but that ribbon tweeter never QUITE mated seamlessly w/the full range drivers, and it's the only Zu model that I believe had to utilise a rudimentary x/over. One of the secrets to Zu magic is a x/overless system, just using a simple high pass and low pass filters to Radian supertweeter and on-board pwrd sub bass - just 2 Duelund caps and resistors per spkr. It was a direction Zu never went in again, and IMHO their current Radian tweeter, esp w/Duelunds in the high pass filter are a marvel of getting the balance of smoothness and detail just right, the seam to the NanoTec impregnated paper cone full range drivers nigh on invisible/inaudible.
If you have even the least bit of feeling for the Zu sound, you'll understand my reticencence even considering moving away.
I have had criticism for being emotionally connected to gear like Zus obscuring an open mind to "better" options out there, but they spoke to me within 5 mins in 2008, and the conversation has never let up (ok, time to take my meds ).

 

[Zero000]

From memory it sounded a little mashed up and haphazard BUT it had a highly engaging nature to it. Less than accurate, but damned good fun.

 

[spiritofmusic]

From memory it sounded a little mashed up and haphazard BUT it had a highly engaging nature to it. Less than accurate, but damned good fun.

That's how my GF describes me, so perfect synergy. I liken the Zu/Nat to a more refined version of the active Naim/Linn Isobarik setups that were all the rage in the UK high end setups in the 70s and 80s. Engaging, infectious, foot tapping, but no chance of winning in a P*****g up against the wall competition w/the B&Ws, Wilsons, Pro Acs, KEFs etc of the time, that measured much better, and had flatter frequency performance. Ironically, Apogees would have been on that list, I remeber going to Stages demo in the late 80s to hear them w/Old School Krell behemoths. Scary as hell, but highly impressive. Even at that time, the sound was just too much, really preferring the Naim/Linn school. And that was the high end US/UK divide three decades ago - Krell/Apogees v Naim/Linn. Absolute Sounds v Grahams Hi Fi. You had to fit into one camp or the other.
So, fast fwd three decades, how are the Apogees going to check out now? I have NO doubt they'll be more accurate than my Zus, more fluid, less boxy (obv), more extended on top and bottom, more focussed and detailed. Indeed with all this, why wouldn't I like them? But will they have character, strength, solidity, boogie factor, ability to make me melt into the music, jump factor that keeps me interested? In short, will they be fun, or just "impress" me like so many so-called superior-to-Zu speakers? Sounds that I admire rather than love?

 

[Zero000]

That's how my GF describes me, so perfect synergy. I liken the Zu/Nat to a more refined version of the active Naim/Linn Isobarik setups that were all the rage in the UK high end setups in the 70s and 80s. Engaging, infectious, foot tapping, but no chance of winning in a P*****g up against the wall competition w/the B&Ws, Wilsons, Pro Acs, KEFs etc of the time, that measured much better, and had flatter frequency performance. Ironically, Apogees would have been on that list, I remeber going to Stages demo in the late 80s to hear them w/Old School Krell behemoths. Scary as hell, but highly impressive. Even at that time, the sound was just too much, really preferring the Naim/Linn school. And that was the high end US/UK divide three decades ago - Krell/Apogees v Naim/Linn. Absolute Sounds v Grahams Hi Fi. You had to fit into one camp or the other.
So, fast fwd three decades, how are the Apogees going to check out now? I have NO doubt they'll be more accurate than my Zus, more fluid, less boxy (obv), more extended on top and bottom, more focussed and detailed. Indeed with all this, why wouldn't I like them? But will they have character, strength, solidity, boogie factor, ability to make me melt into the music, jump factor that keeps me interested? In short, will they be fun, or just "impress" me like so many so-called superior-to-Zu speakers? Sounds that I admire rather than love?

Well who knows. I'm addicted, though. I know that