Are High-End Cables a Scam?

[garylkoh]

As someone who used to be a cable skeptic, and then tried all sorts of cables, before succumbing to designing my own, I only managed to plow through 5 pages of this thread. I will say this - every cable design probably works "best" in the system used by the cable designer. I don't believe that every speaker cable designer has available to them every conceivable combination of loudspeaker and amplifier. And hence, while they may very well have achieved "the best" in their ears, their system, and their room, their solution may sound like a scam to cable skeptics.

However, ever since going through my own exercise in cable design, I have been very much more charitable towards cable manufacturers. Most do have a rationale or philosophy in their design, and all that I have met have been earnest and honest. A very few have grown rich in the cable business.

I am embarrassed to be selling cables at what I think to be nose-bleed prices, but that is the reality of costs of manufacturing, distribution and marketing. I'm only selling them because there are willing buyers who will happily pay those prices.

That is why I created the Cable Dialectic here:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2963-The-Cable-Dialectic

muralman may indeed have found the best cables for his system - I don't think that I've ever read him saying that they are The Best Cables for all systems. May be others will discover that the best cables for their system will be home-made costing less than $80. May be others will discover that cables make no discernible difference in their system. May be it will put me out of the cable business, but I don't think so.....

 

[microstrip]

As someone who used to be a cable skeptic, and then tried all sorts of cables, before succumbing to designing my own, I only managed to plow through 5 pages of this thread. I will say this - every cable design probably works "best" in the system used by the cable designer. I don't believe that every speaker cable designer has available to them every conceivable combination of loudspeaker and amplifier. And hence, while they may very well have achieved "the best" in their ears, their system, and their room, their solution may sound like a scam to cable skeptics.

However, ever since going through my own exercise in cable design, I have been very much more charitable towards cable manufacturers. Most do have a rationale or philosophy in their design, and all that I have met have been earnest and honest. A very few have grown rich in the cable business. (...)

Great post!

 

[muralman1]

As someone who used to be a cable skeptic, and then tried all sorts of cables, before succumbing to designing my own, I only managed to plow through 5 pages of this thread. I will say this - every cable design probably works "best" in the system used by the cable designer. I don't believe that every speaker cable designer has available to them every conceivable combination of loudspeaker and amplifier. And hence, while they may very well have achieved "the best" in their ears, their system, and their room, their solution may sound like a scam to cable skeptics.

However, ever since going through my own exercise in cable design, I have been very much more charitable towards cable manufacturers. Most do have a rationale or philosophy in their design, and all that I have met have been earnest and honest. A very few have grown rich in the cable business.

I am embarrassed to be selling cables at what I think to be nose-bleed prices, but that is the reality of costs of manufacturing, distribution and marketing. I'm only selling them because there are willing buyers who will happily pay those prices.

That is why I created the Cable Dialectic here:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2963-The-Cable-Dialectic

muralman may indeed have found the best cables for his system - I don't think that I've ever read him saying that they are The Best Cables for all systems. May be others will discover that the best cables for their system will be home-made costing less than $80. May be others will discover that cables make no discernible difference in their system. May be it will put me out of the cable business, but I don't think so.....

Gary, yes, my cables may only be applicable to class D amps, and perhaps, just to the ones I employ in my system. If disability had not grounded me, I would have been bouncing from one audiphile's lair to another to see if it is so. I have found out, in testing these cables early on, one tampers with crossovers and exotic drivers of their speakers at their own peril.

 

[Kokoev]

Sorry, I didn't read all 19+ pages of this thread but this I had to respond to

Some others, say that they can not find any relation between raw cost and cable improvements. However, as there are no objective data of cable performance no one can prove it. The only force that can separate the good guys from the bad guys is the market reaction, and help from knowledgeable experts and people with proper expertise is needed. Unhappily someone who says that there are no differences and everything sounds the same will not be of great help.

This is wrong. There is objective data of cable performance. It just happens to prove that 95% of cables do not alter the signal as it passes through them. The 5% that do are colored high end garbage, and even then their effect is only observable with highly reactive, extremely low impedance loudspeaker loads.

 

[RogerD]

I haven't read all the pages on this thread.

I came across this recipe for a basic speaker cable. The one thing I agree on is if the cable shielding minimises EMI & RFI interaction with the audio signal the volume should increase.

If the cable has no EMI & RFI rejection capability, in my experience the money spent has been wasted. IMHO

TAKE TWO 12 GAUGE WIRES ( ONE FOR + ONE FOR - ) AND TWIST THEM TOGETHER APPROXIMATELY ONE INCH PER TWIST
GO TO AN ELECTRICAL SUPPLY STORE AND PURCHASE 1/4" SHIELDING, AND COVER THE TWO TWISTED WIRES.
DO NOT ALLOW THE SHIELD TO CONTACT THE BARE WIRES. TAPE THE SHIELD AT EITHER END.
IF POSSIBLE INSULATE THE SHIELD. (RAP IT WITH ELECTRICAL TAPE)
YOU WILL HAVE JUST MADE A PAIR OF SPEAKER CABLES.
YOU MIGHT JUST HAVE TO TURN DOWN THE VOLUME..

 

[microstrip]

(...) There is objective data of cable performance. It just happens to prove that 95% of cables do not alter the signal as it passes through them. The 5% that do are colored high end garbage, and even then their effect is only observable with highly reactive, extremely low impedance loudspeaker loads.

Could you supply a link to the data you refer and nominate the 5% of cables that are "colored high end garbage"? (We assume it is easier than nominating the 95% others).

BTW, in due time I read ALL the pages of this thread and wrote the post from which you are quoting just a sentence - it had a clear meaning in the context of the debate we were carrying. Taken out of it the word "objective" can have several different meanings. Here it was used in the sense of "unbiased". And cable performance was referred as a subjective quality of cables.

 

[MarinJim]

I don't know if there are any "bad" cables. I have heard cables that sound markedly better than others, to the point that it sounds like a major amp or preamp upgrade. The only pet peeve I have are the 800% mark-up on some high end cables***

***Disclaimer-use of 800% for dramatic effect.

 

[Bjorn]

Yes. High-end cables are a scam and those who buy expensive cables are being fooled. Except for a few cases, the cheapest Radio Shack cables will carry the signal perfectly. And those few times certain caracteristics or thick gauge is required, it has absolutely nothing to do with price.

 

[Gregadd]

This is a Radio Shack dipole antenna:


This radio shack speaker cable:


Can you make an antenna with speaker cable?

If so then at least you need to add some RFI shielding to the cable.

 

[es347]

huh?

 

[Gregadd]

In a a pinch I have used cheap speaker cable as an antenna. There is more to making cables than meets the eye.

 

[mauidan]

I haven't read all the pages on this thread.

I came across this recipe for a basic speaker cable. The one thing I agree on is if the cable shielding minimises EMI & RFI interaction with the audio signal the volume should increase.

If the cable has no EMI & RFI rejection capability, in my experience the money spent has been wasted. IMHO

TAKE TWO 12 GAUGE WIRES ( ONE FOR + ONE FOR - ) AND TWIST THEM TOGETHER APPROXIMATELY ONE INCH PER TWIST
GO TO AN ELECTRICAL SUPPLY STORE AND PURCHASE 1/4" SHIELDING, AND COVER THE TWO TWISTED WIRES.
DO NOT ALLOW THE SHIELD TO CONTACT THE BARE WIRES. TAPE THE SHIELD AT EITHER END.
IF POSSIBLE INSULATE THE SHIELD. (RAP IT WITH ELECTRICAL TAPE)
YOU WILL HAVE JUST MADE A PAIR OF SPEAKER CABLES.
YOU MIGHT JUST HAVE TO TURN DOWN THE VOLUME..

I'm using shielded speaker cables that are similar to your recipe:



All teflon insulation.

I twist the two conductors together and use shotgun runs for each channel.

 

[RogerD]

I'm using shielded speaker cables that are similar to your recipe:

View attachment 2161

All teflon insulation.

I twist the two conductors together and use shotgun runs for each channel.

Hello Dan,

And how do they sound compared to others that you have tried? Also what does this cable do well?

Roger

 

[Speedskater]

On radio interference:

a] Just twist your speaker cables, say about one to three or four turns per foot.

b] Chose a well designed power amplifier, that rejects RFI coming in the speaker terminals.

c] Use a different length speaker cables that don't act as a tuned antenna at the interfering frequency.

 

[RogerD]

On radio interference:

a] Just twist your speaker cables, say about one to three or four turns per foot.

b] Chose a well designed power amplifier, that rejects RFI coming in the speaker terminals.

c] Use a different length speaker cables that don't act as a tuned antenna at the interfering frequency.

I use 3 ferrite core clamps on each of my 12ft speaker cables, the clamps on each end and one in the middle. The improved clarity was noticeable and for the 25.00 dollars spent to improve 2K cables why not.

All speaker cables would benefit,as well as IC's,PC's,digital cables

 

[Lee]

An observation to share:

Recently my friend in recording arts Nick and I did an interconnect shootout with some good DIY cable that our local audio club is using. We compared this to Kimber KCAG and Black Cat cable made by my friend Chris Sommovigo.

This DIY cable is oxygen free copper coated in silver and assembled by some local experts in building audio gear-cost around $100/pair. The Kimber is now around $1,200 and Black Cat around $600. Nick and I expected the KCAG to win because we use it as mic cable and have done blind tests against many, many expensive cables and it always wins. At the end of the day, we felt the Black Cat cable was the best. Both KCAG and Black Cat roundly beat the DIY cable and the Black Cat was a nice step up from KCAG.

So my feeling is that making great cable is not so easy. Chris has been making cable since Illuminati took the digital world by storm roughly 20 years ago, Ray Kimber has been doing it for 30 years I believe. There is value in having mfg experience, lots of experimentation, and better quality components and geometry that the DIY crowd simply does not have.

 

[Gregadd]

http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio...of-amplifiers-and-cables--Part-5?pageNumber=1

 

[LL21]

Interesting...also intriguing that Transparent Audio adjust each Reference MM series cable based on your components...presumably to address this sensitivity in interaction between amp, cable and speaker? (ie, impedance loads, etc.)?

 

[Gregadd]

Uncle Mikey tell us your secret. Using two identical CD players, I tested a $2,000, eight-foot pair of Sigma Retro Gold cables from Monster Cable, which are as thick as your thumb, against 14-gauge, hardware-store speaker cable. Many audiophiles say they are equally good. I couldn't hear a difference and was a wee bit suspicious that anyone else could. But of the 39 people who took this test, 61% said they preferred the expensive cable.
That may not be much of a margin for two products with such drastically different prices, but I was struck by how the best-informed people at the show -- like John Atkinson and Michael Fremer of Stereophile Magazine -- easily picked the expensive cable.
Its sound was described as "richer," "crisper" and "more coherent." Like some wines, come to think of it.
In absolute terms, though, the differences weren't great. Mr. Atkinson guesstimated the expensive cables sounded roughly 5% better. Remember, by definition, an audiophile is one who will bear any burden, pay any price, to get even a tiny improvement in sound.


Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120044692027492991.html#ixzz1W9UoT8fx

 

[c1ferrari]

I have read every page of this

thread...
this evening...
in one sitting...
while listening to Queen...
I'm glad I bought this CD