Are High-End Cables a Scam?

[LenWhite]

When I committed to elevating my audio system after hearing a lot of great equipment at RMAF/2008, I knew it would require paying attention to every detail to achieve optimum results. The first item I addressed was using a set of Nordost Ti pulsar points I'd purchased at RMAF for resonance control - my B&W N802/Krell based system improved in terms of articulation and bass control. But though the N802's had a very good mid band, I had always felt they lacked visceral bass I heard in other audio systems and were slightly hard edged at the high end. After hearing the Raidho Ayra C3.0's at RMAF and being impressed how speakers that size could produce a dynamic sound stage with presence I replaced the N802's with the Raidho's. The Ayra's at RMAF had been connected with all Nordost cabling and they're wired internally with Nordost. And because I had attended another RMAF seminar emphasizing audio system foundation (room acoustics, power conditioning, synergistic cabling, resonance control), I committed to all Nordost cabling (PC's, IC's, speaker). I started with the PC's and heard more bass, resolution, and articulation and as I added additional PC's, IC's, and the speaker cabling I heard the system improve in terms of coherence, presence, and imaging. I've since gone way past cabling implementing a Rives Audio acoustic design for my listening room together with complete resonance control on every audio device (including the speakers), and some minimal power conditioning (I want to address this area further). And while the room acoustics had the single most positive impact, the cabling and resonance control played a very significant part in overall audio system synergy.

Before using the all Nordost cabling I was using a very good reasonably priced cable from DH Labs, but there's no question in my mind the Nordost cabling significantly improved my audio system in the way I described above. Based on my hearing the results in my own audio system I strongly disagree with those that believe good synergistic cabling has little if any impact on audio systems.

 

[muralman1]

Hey Audioguy,
When Dunlavy wrote the stuff 15 years ago, many speaker and amp manufacturers had the same opinion and many have changed their minds since. I auditioned a pair of his speakers years ago, thought they were OK, but not outstanding — and I remember trying them with three cable brands that did nothing to improve the loudspeakers' performance. Maybe that's the reason for his cable nonsense paper. As well, there weren't cable measurement and there was a lot of cable BS at the time. Some measurements are now available, although they will not reveal what a good cable can do for the consumer. By the way, back in the early eighties, Hitachi engineers in Japan found that copper purity and crystal structure greatly influences signal flow — and they made cables that few philes had a chance to hear. I did — and became a believer. Now, I simply smile when the subject becomes too intense. High-end cables have found their way into loads of amplifier and speaker wiring , which would indicate that some engineers are believers too. Oh it's all good fun, I am going for a beer.

I largely agree with Dunlapy, in that most cable designs are simply snake oil. I don't subscribe to his every configuration works just as good. I wish one of the folks posting here would come over for some fun testing. The results here do not measure in .5dB subtleties. It is night and day. Most cables fail dismally regardless of price. In fact, some pricier cables test the worst.

In my system it all boils down to configuration of the conductor. Braided, round wire, and thin all produce easily discerned difference. Braided cables diffuse the signal. Round wires clarifies, but truncates the frequency range into a bell shape. Only thin flat conductors do it all right. Unlike the other two configurations, the ribbon firmly sets the stage, depth, player location, proper pitch, clarity, and dynamism.

Call me a lunatic, heretic, or any potty name, I will stand resolute in my findings.

Vince

 

[microstrip]

(...) In my system (...).

I think that this is of uppermost importance. Cable behavior is very much system dependent and some systems highlight cable differences, other disguise them. Our opinions about cables are always limited to the systems where we heard them, unless we such an experience that we are able to make a few risky generalizations.

But I must disagree with your too broad statement -

"I largely agree with Dunlapy, in that most cable designs are simply snake oil.

. By saying most you are surely targeting at a number - 80, 90 or 95%? Could you go in a cable guide and mark more than two thirds of the cables as "snake oil"? What would be the criteria to separate the good and the bad guys?

Surely there are a few that I am also tempted to class as "snake oil", but perhaps I would risk to find sometime later it had been an unfair judgment.

 

[muralman1]

I think that this is of uppermost importance. Cable behavior is very much system dependent and some systems highlight cable differences, other disguise them. Our opinions about cables are always limited to the systems where we heard them, unless we such an experience that we are able to make a few risky generalizations.

But I must disagree with your too broad statement - . By saying most you are surely targeting at a number - 80, 90 or 95%? Could you go in a cable guide and mark more than two thirds of the cables as "snake oil"? What would be the criteria to separate the good and the bad guys?

Surely there are a few that I am also tempted to class as "snake oil", but perhaps I would risk to find sometime later it had been an unfair judgment.

How can cables be so system dependent when they are carrying the music signal on whatever carrier? Some high money cables do well enough, such as the Shunyata cables give excellent results. Cerious is good also, but for me they color the sound mellow. Check out the Shunyata site and see why I know I am right about thick to moderate insulated cables induce distortion. On my system the distortion is audible as a hush sound. I have proved that to a dealer for Cardas.

My cables are very short thus avoid problems.

 

[tony ky ma]

I do believe in systems, cable can affect to sound quality, but I will not pay high price for them, I make my own, tried more materials in different ways of construction that will experience the difference of them, it is no difficulty to detect the difference same as between in fresh make and after break-in, I put DC voltage surround the conductors of the cable ( inter connect and speaker) to give a power shielding , power on and off or change voltage up and down will also change the sound quality too. the fun from this hobby-cable diy will not cost too much money even to use expensive material like 4N silver, the result will beat a lot of market made with high price. I can show the way how I made and pictures too if somebody interested
tony ma

 

[muralman1]

I do believe in systems, cable can affect to sound quality, but I will not pay high price for them, I make my own, tried more materials in different ways of construction that will experience the difference of them, it is no difficulty to detect the difference same as between in fresh make and after break-in, I put DC voltage surround the conductors of the cable ( inter connect and speaker) to give a power shielding , power on and off or change voltage up and down will also change the sound quality too. the fun from this hobby-cable diy will not cost too much money even to use expensive material like 4N silver, the result will beat a lot of market made with high price. I can show the way how I made and pictures too if somebody interested
tony ma

Awe, a gentleman making DIY cables. Hats off to you. Maybe you can make cables like mine to test on your system. They equal the best I have heard.

 

[tony ky ma]

Awe, a gentleman making DIY cables. Hats off to you. Maybe you can make cables like mine to test on your system. They equal the best I have heard.

I did buy cable before Cardas golden cross and Kimber silver, after I made my own cable around 10 years ago , I gave up those and friends around here they all follow to do the same thing, I tried power shielding at 8 years ago before the market show up those come with battery. I did change many type of constructions and materials to find out which is the best for my system and then replaced Cardas and Kimber, I use 6 pair of interconnect and 4 sets of speaker cable at the same time in my system
tony ma

 

[microstrip]

How can cables be so system dependent when they are carrying the music signal on whatever carrier? Some high money cables do well enough, such as the Shunyata cables give excellent results. Cerious is good also, but for me they color the sound mellow. Check out the Shunyata site and see why I know I am right about thick to moderate insulated cables induce distortion. On my system the distortion is audible as a hush sound. I have proved that to a dealer for Cardas.

My cables are very short thus avoid problems.

I do not need to check Shunyata site, as I am hosting an Antares and Orion full set. For some systems these cables are really excellent, but with my Soundlabs the speaker cables sound fat and lack detail. Cardas Golden reference is also very good sounding, but sounds quite different from Cardas Neutral Reference.

BTW, some manufacturers say that their cables should have a minimal length for maximum benefit.

 

[muralman1]

I do not need to check Shunyata site, as I am hosting an Antares and Orion full set. For some systems these cables are really excellent, but with my Soundlabs the speaker cables sound fat and lack detail. Cardas Golden reference is also very good sounding, but sounds quite different from Cardas Neutral Reference.

BTW, some manufacturers say that their cables should have a minimal length for maximum benefit.

What speaker cables were you trying? Was it a Shunyata cable? I heard them with TACT gear. They were anything, but flat. The highs were exceptional, as was the bass. Their bass was also well done.

The Golden Reference sounded muffled and very noisy. With solid state I believe that would translate to a warm sounding cable.

 

[microstrip]

What speaker cables were you trying? Was it a Shunyata cable? I heard them with TACT gear. They were anything, but flat. The highs were exceptional, as was the bass. Their bass was also well done.

The Golden Reference sounded muffled and very noisy. With solid state I believe that would translate to a warm sounding cable.

I was using the old top speaker cable of Shunyata - the Orion's. Shunyata replaced all their ranges recently (and introduced some very expensive new cables) . Please do not misread me - they are exceptional cables, as you say, but my point was just that this is not true with every speaker or system.

I am astonished with your findings about the Cardas Golden Reference range with tubes - I have used it with great success with conrad johnson and Audio Research electronics. They are very detailed, musical and an excellent value for money. As the interconnect is very low capacity, it can be used for long length cables.

 

[muralman1]

I was using the old top speaker cable of Shunyata - the Orion's. Shunyata replaced all their ranges recently (and introduced some very expensive new cables) . Please do not misread me - they are exceptional cables, as you say, but my point was just that this is not true with every speaker or system.

I am astonished with your findings about the Cardas Golden Reference range with tubes - I have used it with great success with conrad johnson and Audio Research electronics. They are very detailed, musical and an excellent value for money. As the interconnect is very low capacity, it can be used for long length cables.

I use the Speltz interconnects. They are inexpensive and they can do everything. Cardas Golden Reference and Jenna the same day failed miserably in front of a very embarrassed seller. The Jena actually did better, but their self noise was easily heard. If you go to the Shunyata site, they explain why this is true. Now I know what cables will sound like from just how they look.


My system is all about let the music be. There are no filters. The music must be passed to the amps unsullied, or the sound will suffer.

 

[mep]

The music must be passed to the amps unsullied, or the sound will suffer.

Now that's a profound statement.

 

[muralman1]

Now that's a profound statement.

Hi Mep, yes, whether sarcastic or not, it is a true statement rarely addressed by the majority of audiophiles. Not my choice, but because they believe the tutorials supplied by the engineers whose very applications do indeed soil the music wave. I did not know what I have here constituting my system because I treated it as anyone else at first, and that is, you look at reviews, then buy to your pocket book's burst. The first engineer bubble that burst for me, was wires don't make a difference. It was demonstrated to me with a switch of my stock power cord with a more costly one fully shielded. It made such a marked difference, I realized I had a lot of investigating and trials ahead. My electronics engineer amp builder was just as surprised when I told him.

Reading Speltz writings on the sins of cable cloaks, I bought his anti-cables and replaced my Kimbers. I found Speltz was not only right, it was shockingly clear on my system. After hearing Shunyata cables, with gossamer material binding the wires, I heard a revelation. Folks in Europe with the same speakers were telling me they were used thin ribbons right up into the crossover. Making some thin copper ribbons were easy enough, so I gave it a try. Knowing my speaker's internal negative carrier was an aluminum ribbon, I figured why not me? The result was a resounding success. I slapped Kapton tape on both sides of both the positive copper ribbons and the negative aluminum ribbons. They really serve every genre of music to their fullest expression over the entire frequency spectrum.

Before you engineer folks cry witch craft, I sent these cables to my amp and preamp builder. He was shocked, and totally sold! He told me I proved there is a difference between the positive and negative cables. No-one will believe us though, except for the handful who have heard it here.

 

[fas42]

No-one will believe us though, except for the handful who have heard it here.

Don't worry, Vince, I believe you, but I won't open that can of worms again ... It's all part of the audio equation which says that everything, repeat, everything has to be correct to realise the potential in recordings.

Frank

 

[muralman1]

Don't worry, Vince, I believe you, but I won't open that can of worms again ... It's all part of the audio equation which says that everything, repeat, everything has to be correct to realise the potential in recordings.

Frank

Well said! I'll drink to that! And here I thought I was being original. What I found out by experience breaks some expert posted rules, is that was the only way to perfection!

 

[mep]

FAS and Muralman remind me of the Forrest Gump movie in the part where Forrest talks about his relationship with Jenny. They get along just like peas and carrots.

 

[mullard88]

Vince,

I also believe what you posted in #184. I believe what I hear over science. When science or engineering can not explain the experience, then I believe in the witch craft behind the design. I have accepted that this hobby is a combination of science and voodoo.

 

[fas42]

FAS and Muralman remind me of the Forrest Gump movie in the part where Forrest talks about his relationship with Jenny. They get along just like peas and carrots.

You know, Mark, it's people like you that make me proud to be part of the human race. It's always good to know that some people really know what's going on, and everyone else is just fooling around, just w@^kers of various orders ...

Frank

 

[mep]

You know, Mark, it's people like you that make me proud to be part of the human race. It's always good to know that some people really know what's going on, and everyone else is just fooling around, just w@^kers of various orders ...

Frank

Frank-You and Muralman have a common bond don't you? That's all I meant with my comment. I have never claimed to have any special expertise, but I do believe in the laws of physics though.

 

[fas42]

That's all I meant with my comment. I have never claimed to have any special expertise, but I do believe in the laws of physics though.

Fair enough, but ask any physicist whether they believe in the laws of physics! As anybody who has gone to any depth in that subject knows as soon as you go past the bleedin' obvious, the physical world starts to become very bizarre, and the further in you go, the more difficult it is to be sure you really know what you've got!

This is all extremely by the way, merely to point out that if one is to put forward a certain group of "facts" as all that is necessary to explain what is going on, that you are almost guaranteeing that one is going to come a cropper at some stage ...

Frank