A small tube IA maybe just the ticket for your set up. Art Dudley's review of the Leben CS300 will be in the November issue of Stereophile.
Its big brother the CS600 has already received a Class A rating.
Are Integrated Amps making a comeback?
- Thread starter Johnny Vinyl
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A small tube IA maybe just the ticket for your set up. Art Dudley's review of the Leben CS300 will be in the November issue of Stereophile.
Its big brother the CS600 has already received a Class A rating.
I don't doubt that a bit, micro. It sounds right, of course -- resistors, capacitors, cables, plugs, power supplies -- they're all sources of noise and distortion. The question, of course, is, "Is it audible?" I suspect that given excellent design and execution of separate DAC, phono stage, pre, mono block power amps...it's not audible. Or at least not enough to matter.
So many old audiophile ethos -- less is more, more is more, money is more, more current is more, more voltage is more, etc, etc, etc, all end in that same answer: It depends.
This one, though, makes a lot of sense. Does the noise and distortion of all those redundant components and all their nose-making parts, connected together by all those wires and plugs, juiced by those multiple power supplies add up? Is it audible? It depends. But the logic is in favor of integration and simplification is hard to escape, and it makes you wonder why there aren't more audiophile integrated amps. My guess is the answer is very similar to the question of why there aren't more audiophile active speakers. A: It's not what the audiophile market wants.
And now we've gone full circle...
Tim
I don't mean to be contrary, but I'd think long and hard (and insist on an in-home evaluation) before I'd pair a small tube amp with a pair of 88 db speakers. A system does not have to be pushed hard to benefit from sufficient headroom, it only needs to face some serious transient peaks.
Tim
I've already demo'd the Leben CS 600 with my 88 db speakers in a room much larger than mine, and
it had plenty of power for my listening tastes.
Positive feedback reviewer, Jeff Day uses the Leben CS 600 with 86 db Harbeth Super HL5s in a room about the same size as John's.
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?page_id=521
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I'll be sure to pick up that issue when it hits the newsstands.
This has always been my worry as well. Additionally, whatever I decide on will be with me for a long time...the room however could change and likely will into something quite a bit larger.
Hi John,
If that happens, most HiEnd IA amps can have their preamp separated (preamp outs) from the amp section and could then the preamp could be used with a bigger amp as the power source. It may not be as convenient of as "clean" looking but it does offer some relief if push comes to shove.
Rich
Hi Rich,
I understand that and thanks. However, the financial implications of such a move aren't really in the cards for me, so I need to make the right decision up front. If I were to go with an IA (and that decision has not yet been made, although I am a fan), I think something along the lines of an ARC VSi60 would likely be a better choice.
My guess is the answer is very similar to the question of why there aren't more audiophile active speakers. A: It's not what the audiophile market wants.
And now we've gone full circle...
Tim
I would elaborate on this by saying that it is not what the equipment manufacturer wants. Why sell one box when one can sell two, plus cables, footers, tweaks? There is an expansion effect that is not insignificant.
I would also add that the postulation of advantage being conferred upon separates is often an analytic one that is more readily grasped by the lay person. It makes sense that separation and isolation should be useful. Similarly, the rush towards fully balanced circuits that has taken hold of the hobby since the mid-1990s is also propounded (and valorized) as obviously better. The question is whether doubling of circuitry is actually (empirically) better and whether we would actually be able to discern the difference in our listening system/environment.
In digital, I see this in the move to 192; given Nyquist, we would have energy way above our hearing limit and of the microphones used to record and above most tweeters. Not to mention new ways to sell old recordings yet again - perhaps without even offering true high resolution versions.
I have an integrated amp; I also have a receiver and I would have to say that the IA is darn good at about 1/5 the cost of my main amp/preamp combo.
(...) . But the logic is in favor of integration and simplification is hard to escape, and it makes you wonder why there aren't more audiophile integrated amps. My guess is the answer is very similar to the question of why there aren't more audiophile active speakers. A: It's not what the audiophile market wants.
And now we've gone full circle...
Tim
A guess is just a guess. But my view is the same as before - if the market does not accept them there should be good valid reasons, not just fashion. Unhappily logic is not always the best way of getting good sound - and before applying logic to this problem you would have to define what are "redundant components" in sound reproduction.
Supported by arguments similar to yours I have lived with several integrated amplifiers - Jadis DA60, Rowland Concentra, the ASR emiiter II Exclusive. Unhappily, IMHO, every time I put a good matching preamplifier in front of them there were improvements.
I listened to the ARC VSi60 on my speakers. It's an excellent IA, but I preferred the Leben CS 600.
Some people don't mind a bit of soft clipping. Some even like it. It is the opposite of the sound I prefer, which others think of as analytical or sterile. Different strokes...
Tim
Yes, there should be good valid reasons, but that doesn't mean there are. Audiophiles are an emotional lot, who often believe in the most unlikely things. While I may look for logic and good valid reasons there, I don't count on them. YMMV.
Tim
I'm becoming a strong believer in keeping different signals apart. High power from low power; digital from analogue; audio from video: that sort of thing.
However, I'm not sure there's much you can achieve with two boxes that you can't do in one box with two power supplies and a metal division. These days there so many other types of signals (noise and interference) you have to contend with, that simply separating pre- and power isn't the end of it.
I find that switching the PC or TV off makes music sound better, and removing the mains lead is better still. So many bits of electronic equiment have switching power supplies these days - for good reasons - but they're bad news for audio. I have a good surround processor that uses a switching supply, and I've been doing some experiments. I tried substituting equivalent linear power supplies, and the sound quality took a big step forwards. That was kind of frustrating, as it was an expensive piece when it was new, and it would have been so easy for the manufacturer to get that right.
I keep hearing how front panel displays have a bad effect of SQ as well (though its not something I lose sleep over). Overall, I think there are a lot of equipment interactions that affect system performance, and low level / high level signals are just one of them.
nick
As said earlier, it's all about the implementation: 88dB speakers with 30W a side can easily pulverise 96dB units with 300W a side in terms of sound quality, and it has nothing to do with soft clipping. It has everything to do with minimising compression, an all in term meaning the amp starts to distort as the power supply begins to stress. A well sorted out 30W will always trump a yet another thrown together 300 watter every time ...
Frank
In other words a good amp is better than a bad one
Doesn't tell us very much
What about a well sorted 30w compared to a well sorted 300w, that's discussion worth having
Good thought. Depends on the sensitivity of the speaker, and how much you want to party. A reasonably sensitive speaker under normal listening conditions, it should make close to zero difference.
With a very low sensitivity speaker, or if you want to rattle the windows, then the higher power unit won't clip, risking doing damage to the speaker. A really well designed unit should easily clip and be totally unnoticeable doing so, a lesser unit will start to compress and effectively clip at lower than rated output, doing much more damage to the sound, and your gear ...
Frank
I confess I haven't a clue what this means unless you're talking about the use of tubes or mosfets, which clip "softly." As far as I can tell, clipping causes compression and distortion. I don't know how a unit could be "well-designed" so that it could clip and not cause compression and distortion, so I find the much more effective methodology is to not try to drive low efficiency speakers with low power amps in the first place. YMMV.
Tim
Agreed, the best policy is to always ensure headroom, so there is never any clipping, ever. But, as I mentioned earlier, many music tracks contain clipped signals, and most people are barely aware of this fact at normal or lower listening levels because the amplifier is operating in its comfort zone. And when I say comfort zone, this is when the power supply voltage doesn't sag: most people would think that the power supplies in a power amplifier which measures nicely at say 70V DC when the amp is idling, will stay at that level irrespective of what work the amp is asked to perform. But the reality is very different: a simulation of a real vs. imagined supply shows what happens when a series of powerful bass notes are to be reproduced, that lovely 70V may plummet to something like 45V momentarily, to pull a figure out of the air.
What, you say? How can that be happen? Well, it's just a fact of life for the way most supplies work, which is why Krell and the like are justly famous for working hard to minimise this happening. But a conventional amp has not got this extra level of engineering, the supply plummets when asked to work harder, it's no longer a nice DC signal, but a rather unpleasant looking ripply mess. Sounds like a good recipe for unpleasant clipping, compression, distortion? You bet!
So when a heavy duty Krell amp clips, it's very close in nature to a conventional amp replaying a clipped musical signal at low volume: it you look at the signal being fed to the speaker it will have the same waveform, but different amplitudes.
Frank
Ahhhh....context then. This line of conversation began with the recommendation of a 12 wat amp for a pair of 88db speakers.
Tim
Tim
That is in fact what can make that 12 W sound better than say 100W: the power supply in the former is very firm, does not deviate or flinch when pushed hard, and clips "cleanly". The supposed higher powered unit sags badly, and it's all too obvious via the speaker cones that it's stressed ...
Frank
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