As We Get Older - Hearing Aids for High End Audio/Concerts & Home Theatre

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Someone asked me: What is germane is what services an audiologist can provide that are relevant to audiophiles. As far as I can tell HA mfgr's and audiologists are focused on speech intelligibility and processing for dealing with noisy environments, etc. What can they do for us other than tell us to use the program with the least processing? When you followup with your Audiologist please ask if any of the improvements are related to basic transduction quality or anything of interest to audiophiles."

No question Audiology over the years has been primarily concerned with speech. However, in recent years improvements have been made for automatic (and in case of Phonak Autosense as far as I can tell so far also seamless) switching of modes for different environments, including music. In past, some manufacturers have had manual switching of modes, some had music. But my web sleuthing, and my Audiologist, advise that its best, if one can afford, to have seamless automatic switching of modes including music.

Now I am not an expert re each brand and how they work and features. I have researched Phonak as my Audiologist was of the opinion, given our lengthy discussion, that this would be the best for my concerns.

My web sleuthing indicates Phonak had the first Autosense with models that came out in 2012 (but its not in all models, not the cheapest models)
(the current Costco Phonak Brio 3 appears to use the 2012 chip); the second Autosense came out late 2015 with a newer chip, the Bolero line, of which my demo is; and Autosense 3 comes out this next week with the Marvel line.

So two weeks ago next Tuesday, my Audiologist provided me with demo of Phonak B-R (Bolero Rechargable) with Autosense. Per my web research, this must be either the B70 or B90 models as they are the only ones with Autosense. I will be discussing with my Audiologist the Phonak M-R (Marvel Rechargable) just coming out next week, if she has a demo for me the try, how this may benefit me as an Audiophile given my mild to moderate hearing loss, so I can decide if the extra expense is worth it to me. My gut from the bit I could read on the web is that the Marvel with a faster more powerful chip and newer software with the third version of Autosense (Autosense 3.0) may be even better for hearing sound in 360 degrees with higher frequency extension, but I really don't know for sure, the Marvel is so new just coming out! The Marvel also can be remotely programmed by the Audiologist, so if I have an issue, I get her on the phone, discuss my issue, and she can reprogram - pretty cool, but of course at an extra cost for the Marvel!

My concerns as an Audiophile, one who frequents a lot of live music, mean that I am willing to consider spending more for a hearing aid, as opposed to a "normal" person concerned simply about hearing.

Today, I took my family to an Italian restaurant in Scottsdale, Buca Di Beppo, for Thanksgiving. Very busy, very noisy. Usually, I would be quiet, not listen much to folks talking, and have bit of headache from all the noise. Not tonight. Noise was in the background and everyone at my table was easy to understand. I could even eavesdrop some on other tables nearby. And no headache! A few times I took the hearing aids out briefly and I could hear the difference. The Autosense switched the hearing aid for the noisy restaurant without me doing anything (I'm sure some other hearing aids, again more expensive than ones that don't have this auto feature, do this as well).

I will post as I follow up with my Audiologist and each step of the way how I am doing.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

The Carol Robbins Harp Jazz Quartet last night at Tempe Center for the Arts was excellent. We were seated parallel to Carol Robbins playing her harp, maybe 12 feet away. I call this angelic jazz. With the hearing aids in (vs out) no doubt the presentation was more full bodies, higher reaching frequency, with the harp tones pulsating quite a bit better than without the hearing aids. Another unqualified success for this 'ol fogie wearing hearing aids!

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

The Carol Robbins Harp Jazz Quartet last night at Tempe Center for the Arts was excellent. We were seated parallel to Carol Robbins playing her harp, maybe 12 feet away. I call this angelic jazz. With the hearing aids in (vs out) no doubt the presentation was more full bodies, higher reaching frequency, with the harp tones pulsating quite a bit better than without the hearing aids. Another unqualified success for this 'ol fogie wearing hearing aids!

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Last night I got to hear Jane Monshein at the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum. Jane at 41 has a powerful, often quite high pitched voice! I did find that some songs I understood her words quite well, some I didn't. Whether this is due to how she sings at times, vs whether the mixing at the concert was fine for the jazz instruments but not as helpful for vocals, I don't know. More probably that the music mode for hearing aids may disable a lot of the processing particularly for speech so that the music comes through. Yet not even two weeks ago Rodney Crowell's vocals were clear as daylight - but Rodney has a lower pitched voice, whereas Jane has a very high pitched voice much of the time! I will discuss this when I see my Audiologist this Wednesday! Once again the music itself was clearly better, more well rounded/3D, I could hear drum rolls and cymbals much better, etc like I've discussed before.

 

[stevebythebay]

Just a side note: hearing augmentation as I would call it is clearly on the rise. I've been using an IEM from Nuheara called the IQbuds Boost. It's meant to allow the wearer to hear better in various environments. They deploy, via an iPhone app, an approved audiological program to both test and augment hearing for each ear individually. I tend to only use it with an iPod Nano last generation via Bluetooth. Works quite well in that situation.

I'm 68. My hearing went south in one ear about 32 years ago when the stapes (middle ear bone) broke and a prosthetic was used in surgery. The doctors (because I was put under and they didn't even know what the source of the problem was at the time) were unable to optimize the prosthetic for connection to the ear drum. So, I've always had a range of hearing level loss.

And over the past few years I've developed what doctors claim is a form of tinnitus. I hear a hissing in what seems that same problematic ear, but it varies in volume from time to time. Seems as if it goes in a cycle where it gets louder and then diminishes until it's barely perceptable and eventually I seem to hear it slightly in the right ear before that disappears and the cycle begins anew.

I've held off on any hearing aid for general use or listening to my audio system as I've been a bit skeptical about how well it could perform and whether it might have any downsides, especially in picking up audible cues about spatial effects, depth, etc.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone on how well the devices you're using do on that score, and if you've found any other gotchas.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Just a side note: hearing augmentation as I would call it is clearly on the rise. I've been using an IEM from Nuheara called the IQbuds Boost. It's meant to allow the wearer to hear better in various environments. They deploy, via an iPhone app, an approved audiological program to both test and augment hearing for each ear individually. I tend to only use it with an iPod Nano last generation via Bluetooth. Works quite well in that situation.

I'm 68. My hearing went south in one ear about 32 years ago when the stapes (middle ear bone) broke and a prosthetic was used in surgery. The doctors (because I was put under and they didn't even know what the source of the problem was at the time) were unable to optimize the prosthetic for connection to the ear drum. So, I've always had a range of hearing level loss.

And over the past few years I've developed what doctors claim is a form of tinnitus. I hear a hissing in what seems that same problematic ear, but it varies in volume from time to time. Seems as if it goes in a cycle where it gets louder and then diminishes until it's barely perceptable and eventually I seem to hear it slightly in the right ear before that disappears and the cycle begins anew.

I've held off on any hearing aid for general use or listening to my audio system as I've been a bit skeptical about how well it could perform and whether it might have any downsides, especially in picking up audible cues about spatial effects, depth, etc.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone on how well the devices you're using do on that score, and if you've found any other gotchas.

My daily intermittent headaches and tinnitus have decreased and improved substantially since I've been wearing the demo Phonak Bolero B-R hearing aids!!!! Very pleased on this.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Saw my Audiologist again today. My demo Phonak Bolero B-90R hearing aids had been set for me as a beginner - today she set them to use full range correction. Should be interesting. Follow up in two weeks. She's interested in my "observations" and then she wants me to try a pair of Resound hearing aids with auto features including music! She confirmed pricing will be very competitive but I won't go into detail any more than that.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Below is my Audiologist hearing test results - what they call mild to moderate hearing loss, but which I have been finding out has a significant effect particularly on music, especially live music concerts that I go to a lot. Blue is left ear, red is right ear.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Now that my Audiologist last Tuesday "opened up" the frequency correction of my demo Phonaks to fully correct my mild to moderate hearing loss (as opposed to a beginner's milder correction before), all I can say is - WOW!

First little things. Watched a tv show and sound seemed perhaps more open and better than before (comparing to the beginners correction before). I say perhaps. What I really noticed is I turned on my Sony VW5000 projector and heard a high pitched whirring I had never heard before. I thought gee I'm hearing too much gonna have to have the Audiologist turn it down. Fortunately, after a minute or two the high pitch went away, guess it was on startup for a bit. Wore these the past two days and tonight time for some music ! And here's the WOW! This full range frequency correction heck I dig it totally! Music is jumping at me with everything, its like I had an ear/brain transplant! HA! Two channel improvement is marked vs the beginners correction, which was a nice improvement vs no hearing aids.

Tonight listening to music, its like I'm in a whole new world!

When I next see my Audiologist she wants me to demo Resound. She is very interested in my feedback and personal perception as an audiophile. I have started to read up on Resound and interesting including 116 dB dynamics and frequncy correction to 9.5 kHZ.
https://www.resoundpro.com/en-US/hea.../sound-quality

Though I am happy as a camper right now! Even though the Phonaks only have frequency extension to 8 kHz!

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Now that my Audiologist last Tuesday "opened up" the frequency correction of my demo Phonaks to fully correct my mild to moderate hearing loss (as opposed to a beginner's milder correction before), all I can say is - WOW!

First little things. Watched a tv show and sound seemed perhaps more open and better than before (comparing to the beginners correction before). I say perhaps. What I really noticed is I turned on my Sony VW5000 projector and heard a high pitched whirring I had never heard before. I thought gee I'm hearing too much gonna have to have the Audiologist turn it down. Fortunately, after a minute or two the high pitch went away, guess it was on startup for a bit. Wore these the past two days and tonight time for some music ! And here's the WOW! This full range frequency correction heck I dig it totally! Music is jumping at me with everything, its like I had an ear/brain transplant! HA! Two channel improvement is marked vs the beginners correction, which was a nice improvement vs no hearing aids.

Tonight listening to music, its like I'm in a whole new world!

When I next see my Audiologist she wants me to demo Resound. She is very interested in my feedback and personal perception as an audiophile. I have started to read up on Resound and interesting including 116 dB dynamics and frequncy correction to 9.5 kHZ.
https://www.resoundpro.com/en-US/hearing-aids/linx-quattro/sound-quality

Though I am happy as a camper right now! Even though the Phonaks only have frequency extension to 8 kHz!

In the past days I have listened to quite a bit of two channel in my theatre room. I must reiterate the "WOW". I find myself listening quieter dBwise than ever yet hearing so much more throughout the audio spectrum particularly the highs. The better the audio quality the source material even the better the improvement! And last night I went to a concert at the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum (I am addicted), Devon Allman Project with special guest Duane Betts (yes, sons of The Allman Brothers) who were terrific, playing that southern rock etc, but adding in also some soul/R&B:

Poppin' out and back in my hearing aids at times throughout the concert, I continue to be astonished at the improvements sonically. I was warned this band would play loud (often 90 - 100 dB) and to put in earplugs (he was kidding) - but I found the sound level wonderful and pleasing, and
despite with the hearing aids I was able to hear so much more, it didn't sound louder than without the hearing aids, simply sounded much more pleasing (though I admit pre the hearing aids I would have thought this was so pleasing, too - but now I have a much better point of reference).

Keep in mind although these hearing aids can "restore"? frequency response to 8k, one also loses dynamic range of hearing over the years, too. My understanding is this cannot be restored. So I still do not have the hearing I had when I was 20 years old, now at 65! But its so much better.

I have scheduled more live concerts this next week, and then when my Audiologist has me give back these Phonaks and demo ReSound hearing aids I have several more live concerts in the 10 days thereafter.

I wonder if the reason so many audiophiles love turntables is because the reduced dynamic range of LPs better matches the reduced dynamic range of their hearing as they get older??? HA!

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

In the past days I have listened to quite a bit of two channel in my theatre room. I must reiterate the "WOW". I find myself listening quieter dBwise than ever yet hearing so much more throughout the audio spectrum particularly the highs. The better the audio quality the source material even the better the improvement! And last night I went to a concert at the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum (I am addicted), Devon Allman Project with special guest Duane Betts (yes, sons of The Allman Brothers) who were terrific, playing that southern rock etc, but adding in also some soul/R&B:

Poppin' out and back in my hearing aids at times throughout the concert, I continue to be astonished at the improvements sonically. I was warned this band would play loud (often 90 - 100 dB) and to put in earplugs (he was kidding) - but I found the sound level wonderful and pleasing, and
despite with the hearing aids I was able to hear so much more, it didn't sound louder than without the hearing aids, simply sounded much more pleasing (though I admit pre the hearing aids I would have thought this was so pleasing, too - but now I have a much better point of reference).

Keep in mind although these hearing aids can "restore"? frequency response to 8k, one also loses dynamic range of hearing over the years, too. My understanding is this cannot be restored. So I still do not have the hearing I had when I was 20 years old, now at 65! But its so much better.

I have scheduled more live concerts this next week, and then when my Audiologist has me give back these Phonaks and demo ReSound hearing aids I have several more live concerts in the 10 days thereafter.

I wonder if the reason so many audiophiles love turntables is because the reduced dynamic range of LPs better matches the reduced dynamic range of their hearing as they get older??? HA!

My above impressions continue to hold true! And music in my audio room is simply a joy listening lower volume wise on my Theta Casablanca IVA SSP yet being more engaged musically, not just highs, but across the audio spectrum up to the 8k limits of the Phonak hearing aids. Looking forward to demo the ReSound starting this Wed.

 

[NorthStar]

Steve, do you listen to vinyls? ...Mainly Stereo music?

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Steve, do you listen to vinyls? ...Mainly Stereo music?

Mostly stereo digital using ROON - no turntable!

 

[NorthStar]

I know that you have premium equipment for both music and movies.
I like your thread because it concerns pretty much all of us over a certain age and with our audio handicaps. It is good info we can all use, ...music matters.

It's a wise investment and your experience sharing is of great value.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Last night I watched the 4k blu ray disc of "Crazy Rich Asians". What a surprise. Beatiful video taking place over in China! A reference picture! And the sound - a very wonderful and very musical soundtrack. With the Phonak hearing aids, the improvement in sonics was remarkable. Music was simply a good amount more - musical.
Soundstage for music was improved and wrapped around me even more than without the HAs. And all across the audio spectrum the musical soundtrack was more full bodied and real as well as the more natural and expanded soundstage.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

I know that you have premium equipment for both music and movies.
I like your thread because it concerns pretty much all of us over a certain age and with our audio handicaps. It is good info we can all use, ...music matters.

It's a wise investment and your experience sharing is of great value.

Thanks. For your info, my dedicated home theatre room systm includes:

Sony VPL-VW5000ES laser projector

Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 video processor/scaler

Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 2:40 168” wide X 70” H screen, Snomatte (1.0 gain) (with variable side masking to 4:3) (16:9 is 124.4” wide)

Theta Casablanca IV-A surround processor (with DIRAC Live room correction) with 2 Xtreme D3 DAC cards (12 channels, with Dolby Atmos & DTS-X (My current configuration is 5.4.1 channels, with the two subwoofers chained to each other)

Oppo UDP-205 4k Blu Ray Universal Player (Blu Ray, SACD, DVD-A, CD)

DirecTV HR54 Genie with C61k 4k Genie Mini Client

Apple TV 4k

TIVO Bolt OTA

ROON software for stereo and multi-channel music.

Small Green Computer Sonic Transporter i7 used for ROON Core for both stereo USB (Sonore Signature Rendu SE) and multi-channel HDMI (CAPSv3) (Has 2 ethernet ports, connecting both to router and direct to the Sonore Signature Rendu SE)

Sonore Signature Rendu SE with Synergistic Research black fuse. as ROON endpoint, for 2 channel stereo output over USB to Berkeley Audio Alpha USB Converter, then AES/EBU to Casablanca IV-A SSP).

Berkley Audio Alpha USB Converter

Customized CAPS3.0 (Computer Audiophile Forum) Zuma Music Server (computer, assembled and purchased from Small Green Computer), as ROON Bridge, used for multi-channel HDMI output to Theta Casablanca IV-A SSP.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Got demo ReSound hearing aids mid afternoon today. Came home and listened to music not impressed. Didn't seem to do much compared to no hearing aids and I felt dynamics perhaps limited a bit. I was prepared to bring them back tomorrow very disappointed and get the Phonaks I had demod back whichwere excellent! I went out for dinner using the hearing aids and all I started getting was a minor headache. I came back home quite dejected. However, I decided to try again but expecting to be disappointed listening to 2 channel music. Surprising after a bit the sound has opened up and I'm srarting to really like ths music! Popping the hearing aids in and out I am now hearing a marked sonic improvement vs no HAs! Lyn Stanley's new album "London Calling: A Tribute to Julie London" is hitting me off the charts now more than I recall yesterday listening with the Phonaks! Same for another new album "Carpenters with The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra"! Now I'm listening to "Tettero Plays Eddie Harris and Les McCann". Whereas earlier today this not much different than without my new demo ReSound HAs. now its no doubt as nice, full bodied, better across the board especially highs and as good if not better than I remember with the Phonaks.

I had thought that since I had the Phonaks for more than 2 weeks at full frequency correction that my ear/brain would be used to these demo ReSound hearing aids right away. But apparently it took some hours of using the ReSound hearing aids for my ear/brain to start really adapting!
It "looked" like this was gonna be a good example that what you expect, better sonics as ReSound is speced to 9.5 kHz (8 kHz for Phonak) and 116 dB, was simply not the case, thus the folks who argue you must "blind test" don't know jack S--T! But I am glad this is gonna be a contest now!

And yea I was wrong re pricing. We had discussed price per each single hearing aid before. So yea for latest current model more suited for the crazy audiophile it can be a lot more than going to Costco and getting a more basic model without the auto music mode and what I consider more audiophile features. Up to each consumer to determine what they can and are willing to spend I guess - nothing new in high end audio. But I will say this. My Audiologist only can bill Medicare for the first hearing test visit - not after. And she is willing to continue following up with me, get me fitted in the best hearing aids, and follow up at no extra cost for a good year or more. That is worth something - to me!

Some info on tne ReSound I started demoing today

https://www.resoundpro.com/en-US/hearing-aids/linx-quattro/sound-quality

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Interesting discussions about 16 bit vs 24 bit DACs (analog to digital converters) for hearing aids:

http://www.hearingreview.com/2015/0...y-water-hearing-aid-processing-moves-new-era/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4040855/

16 bit DACs are only capable of 95-96 dB on intake, whereas 24 bit DACs may be capable of up to 119 dB on intake. Therefore as ReSound states that their top new line (out a few months now) has 116 dB dynamic range these DACs must be 24 bit.

When I say on input, this is the original dynamic range of sound that the DAC can capture and convert. Lets say you are at a concert, and some of the sonics extend up to dynamic quick peaks of 105 dB. With a 16 bit DAC, everything above 95-96 dB is truncated and this leads to distortion in the analog digital conversion.

Even if a DAC is 24 bit, this doesn't guarentee it sound better on music and live concerts than a 16 bit one. That depends on the programming and software. Thus yesterday, when I first got the ReSound to demo, they sounded "horrible" in that hardly any different than no hearing aids at all and I thought I could actually ascertain some compression at times. But after wearing them some hours, they opened up and sound great!

In coming years as technology improves and computer/DAC chips become more powerful, no doubt more and more hearing aids at least at the top levels will move to 24 bit, to the extent they haven't done so already. My online sleuthing indicates hearing aid companies DO NOT advertise specs of whether their DACs are 16, 20 or 24 bit. Maybe in the future this will be more of a marketing point?

 

[Eichenbaum]

Which model are you wearing?

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Which model are you wearing?

It’s an Audiologist demo with the top line ReSound Link Quattro.