Atma-Sphere Class D Mono blocks

Atmasphere

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Ralph

I think our friend morricab is still using shellac cylinders for his music. He deserves a strict ignoring – at least until he’s tried a modern Class D amp and can comment from a knowledgeable point of view. I’m sure he’s remembering the Tripath Class D technology that really wasn’t that great. Things Class D have moved on swiftly since then.
It has.

He read @JSA 's post a couple of pages back; what is important about that post is that the time it took from when it left here to the time the post was written was not enough time for the amplifier to break in. Literally the amp was auditioned right out of the box and considering that there was no time allowed for break-in, it did that well against a respected SET. I suspect had JSA given the amp more time he may have chosen differently.
 

morricab

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Ralph

I think our friend morricab is still using shellac cylinders for his music. He deserves a strict ignoring – at least until he’s tried a modern Class D amp and can comment from a knowledgeable point of view. I’m sure he’s remembering the Tripath Class D technology that really wasn’t that great. Things Class D have moved on swiftly since then.
Sorry, WTF do you know about what I have heard and haven’t?? Mola Mola is not modern Class D? Purifi based amps are not modern? I am not sure I ever heard a tripath amp but plenty of ICE, Hypex, N-core, nuforce etc. Etc. Etc.
 

morricab

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Ralph

I think our friend morricab is still using shellac cylinders for his music. He deserves a strict ignoring – at least until he’s tried a modern Class D amp and can comment from a knowledgeable point of view. I’m sure he’s remembering the Tripath Class D technology that really wasn’t that great. Things Class D have moved on swiftly since then.
Oh, and a Shellac cylinder in many ways sounds more alive than modern recordings…ever actually heard one??
 
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JSA

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It has.

He read @JSA 's post a couple of pages back; what is important about that post is that the time it took from when it left here to the time the post was written was not enough time for the amplifier to break in. Literally the amp was auditioned right out of the box and considering that there was no time allowed for break-in, it did that well against a respected SET. I suspect had JSA given the amp more time he may have chosen differently.
It is difficult to judge whether longer burn-in would significantly change the sound signature. I have listened to quite a few various class D amps, and I still prefer good SET amps. I had high hopes for Atma-sphere to be an exception outcompeting good triodes, but to me it wasn't. These are great monoblocks, but I still strongly prefer my SET. I will keep searching though...
 

Atmasphere

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Sorry, WTF do you know about what I have heard and haven’t?? Mola Mola is not modern Class D? Purifi based amps are not modern? I am not sure I ever heard a tripath amp but plenty of ICE, Hypex, N-core, nuforce etc. Etc. Etc.
The thing about any of the amps that use a module not designed by the company is application. You have to get the input buffer right and you have to get the power supply right. The fact that you hear so many variable comments about the products in the list above has a lot do with how they were applied.
It is difficult to judge whether longer burn-in would significantly change the sound signature. I have listened to quite a few various class D amps, and I still prefer good SET amps. I had high hopes for Atma-sphere to be an exception outcompeting good triodes, but to me it wasn't. These are great monoblocks, but I still strongly prefer my SET. I will keep searching though...
We have a lot of feedback in this regard. You can find some of it on this thread. We did not expect that break-in would be much of a variable since the amp employs so much feedback, but in the end it turned out that break-in takes as long with the class D as it does with our tube products.
 

Gregadd

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[Text omitted]
"We have a lot of feedback in this regard. You can find some of it on this thread. We did not expect that break-in would be much of a variable since the amp employs so much feedback, but in the end it turned out that break-in takes as long with the class D as it does with our tube products."
Come on Ralph, you can do better. You mean you did not break-in your prototype or a production model?
 

Atmasphere

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[Text omitted]
"We have a lot of feedback in this regard. You can find some of it on this thread. We did not expect that break-in would be much of a variable since the amp employs so much feedback, but in the end it turned out that break-in takes as long with the class D as it does with our tube products."
Come on Ralph, you can do better. You mean you did not break-in your prototype or a production model?
That's right. I don't think any manufacturer actually breaks stuff in! It takes 100s of hours.
 

Gregadd

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Of course. But when we got the first version that sounded like music running, it didn't need breaking in to show that the project was worth pursuit.
I deleted that question in anticipation of this answer.
 

Tuckers

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From my own experience, Class D amps take a long, long time to fully break in, therefore it is beneficial to know accumulated hours of play for a home demo unit.
Yes, Class D amps do take a long time to break in. For the Atma-Sphere the bass did not start to fully flesh out until 300 hours and it took 500 hours for it to really sound close to its full potential.
 

Holmz

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Yes, Class D amps do take a long time to break in.

What is physically happening during break in?

For the Atma-Sphere the bass did not start to fully flesh out until 300 hours and it took 500 hours for it to really sound close to its full potential.

I assume it is past 500 hours now?
Or are we guessing as to “full potential”?
 

Hear Here

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Sometimes I wonder if "burn in" is synonymous to getting used to an unfamiliar presentation, at least after a very short time!
 

PYP

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That's right. I don't think any manufacturer actually breaks stuff in! It takes 100s of hours.
@Atmasphere When you are testing a prototype, how do you know when you are hearing its full capability? For example, the designer of well-considered streamers has said that his products have further break-in during three month cycles for the first year.

I have also wondered about whether there is a way to anticipate the effect on the sound going from a prototype (perhaps using a partial chassis) to the final casework (meaning, anticipating the effect of the new chassis on proximity of components, vibration, etc.). In the early days of digital, some folks would remove the guts from the chassis claiming it sounded better (well, at least for one model). Today, there are manufacturers of mesh covers (Faraday cage) to reduce EMI for DAC's who claim an improvement in sound, so I'm assuming the production casework matters to the final sound.
 

Gregadd

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Sometimes I wonder if "burn in" is synonymous to getting used to an unfamiliar presentation, at least after a very short time!
I am a firm believer in burn in. If you have a standard it takes time to become acclimated to a new one.
I do not think that applies here. Ralph does not claim a radical departure from his tube amps. He claims the class D amp is as good or even better than his tube design.
In short, same sound, different path.
 

Atmasphere

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@Atmasphere When you are testing a prototype, how do you know when you are hearing its full capability? For example, the designer of well-considered streamers has said that his products have further break-in during three month cycles for the first year.

I have also wondered about whether there is a way to anticipate the effect on the sound going from a prototype (perhaps using a partial chassis) to the final casework (meaning, anticipating the effect of the new chassis on proximity of components, vibration, etc.). In the early days of digital, some folks would remove the guts from the chassis claiming it sounded better (well, at least for one model). Today, there are manufacturers of mesh covers (Faraday cage) to reduce EMI for DAC's who claim an improvement in sound, so I'm assuming the production casework matters to the final sound.
Often you are not- but usually overarching that you find some fatal flaw in the prototype or else you move it to production...

If adding something to the casework changes the sound in a DAC, IMO the design homework wasn't finished. Put another way if any switching circuit isn't being nice and quiet, trying to box in the noise isn't a good move. Better that you find all the parasitics and deal with them.
 
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Kingrex

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I am a firm believer in burn in. If you have a standard it takes time to become acclimated to a new one.
I do not think that applies here. Ralph does not claim a radical departure from his tube amps. He claims the class D amp is as good or even better than his tube design.
In short, same sound, different path.
I was watching Caelin with RobertH video. Cealin talks about metal, and in particular wire being crystalline and amorphous at the same time. That the molecule will shift as current goes through them.

I definitely hear burn in with my wire and panels. I give it 24 hours and the voice is mostly there. I know if happens because I test new wire designs or wire I want to try. I insert it cold and play it as well as play my rederence and listen intently to a variety of different attribute. I am trying to look beyond the audio blindness. Then I let the new wire run 24 hours and do the same test. The new wire has always changed in comparison to the reference.
 

Gregadd

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As I have previously stated burn in is an issue only in short term evaluation of new products. If you live with a product, burn in is inevitable. Mental acclamation may occur over time, or you may reject the product/.
 

aLLeARS

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I am a firm believer in burn in. If you have a standard it takes time to become acclimated to a new one.
I do not think that applies here. Ralph does not claim a radical departure from his tube amps. He claims the class D amp is as good or even better than his tube design.
In short, same sound, different path.
You are right. Ralph’s new class-D amp sounds like his OTL tube designs only better. I became a fan of Ralph’s OTL designs because they are so incredibly transparent sounding. They only have one hi-quality blocking cap in the signal path. They don’t have the limits of an output transformer getting in the way between the amp and speaker. His designs are super wide bandwidth and relatively low distortion for a tube circuit with minimal feedback. 20kHz phase is within one degree of perfect making the highs open and extended sounding with the transient response quick and transparent. His class-D amp has been designed with the same mindset as his OTL tube amps. And the outcome can be heard. This class-D sounds like it came from the same mind as his OTL’s. Because it did.

His class-D has all the attributes as his OTL’s, only with lower noise and distortion which translates into better low level detail retrieval. Better imaging depth. To my ears it is simply mo-better.
 

MarkusBarkus

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particular wire being crystalline and amorphous
...that part seemed a little "soft" to me. I should re-watch it, because amorphous is "sort-of" opposite of a chrystal structure, which has a geometric "definition" of its shape. But I believe those structures can change as current (or extreme pressure, heat) is applied. Not trying to refute this comment, just noting I found it a little vague. Maybe that particle/wave flow concept. On balance, the video was helpful re: their device, IMO.
 

Gregadd

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You are right. Ralph’s new class-D amp sounds like his OTL tube designs only better. I became a fan of Ralph’s OTL designs because they are so incredibly transparent sounding. They only have one hi-quality blocking cap in the signal path. They don’t have the limits of an output transformer getting in the way between the amp and speaker. His designs are super wide bandwidth and relatively low distortion for a tube circuit with minimal feedback. 20kHz phase is within one degree of perfect making the highs open and extended sounding with the transient response quick and transparent. His class-D amp has been designed with the same mindset as his OTL tube amps. And the outcome can be heard. This class-D sounds like it came from the same mind as his OTL’s. Because it did.

His class-D has all the attributes as his OTL’s, only with lower noise and distortion which translates into better low level detail retrieval. Better imaging depth. To my ears it is simply mo-better.
It's always great when someone says I am right. I have not heard the amp, so I have no idea what it sounds like. As always, absent evidence to the contrary I take Ralph at his word. He says it is as good or better than his tube design, I take him at his word. It does beg a very serious question that I am too polite to pose.
The best class D I have heard is the Merrill Audio. Is it as good or better than tubes? Not INMO. It is definitely competitive with the best solid- state designs.
As always, I want all products to be successful (perform as the designer claims). It is sufficient for me that Ralph and his customers are happy.
 

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