Attitude towards and costs of the hobby

[RogerD]

I've gotten a lot more than that and I know others have as well.

So have I. I was being conservative. The system is rigged....

 

[dctom]

In the UK we have 20% vat on everything so high end hifi is even more expensive. As for selling on it is difficult to get more than half the retail price. I have managed to get most of my gear discounted usually ex dem or used, still have to take a hit on selling though.

 

[Folsom]

Our neighborhood lines are buried but feeders from the road a mile or so away are overhead and lightning is an issue. However, at least in my case, I found most spikes were caused by HVAC, fridge, and other motors cycling within the house (our treadmill is a big offender), spikes from high-wattage light fixtures being turned on and off, and so forth, more often than spikes on the incoming lines (aside from thunderstorms, natch).

The escalating prices caught me off-guard several years ago when we finished the basement, with a media room, and I looked to update my system. A $10k USD system is only middling these days, no wonder so many have turned away from "hi-fi". I spoke with a new hire fairly recently who wanted to get a nice system but after reading some magazines felt he'd never be close to "good sound". I pointed out that a very good sounding system for $2k or so (his budget) would still blow away his MP3 player... The very high end is now for millionaires and far out of reach for most of us. I cannot imagine assembling something like my last system (ARC SP3a1, D79, IRS 2 or Magnepans, AR or Thorens TT with Grace or Magnepan arm and various cartridges). SOTA back then, no way I could touch any system with claims to SOTA now. Fortunately, there is still stuff that sounds good to me even if not up to WBF standards.

I don't think it's a surprise that SOTA has climbed in prices. But I think people's idea of realistic pricing for performance and product have been skewed by purchasing stuff from China, making a huge discrepancy between goods and their value. What would the answer for a manufacturer be to answer that call? Take out a loan and run themselves into the ground?

There's some great value in audio. But squeezing in under $10k isn't easy, and it gets tougher every rung below that. In fact there's ways to accomplish very good systems for those low figures, but you have to put in the work to understand how, and what. The forum AudioCircle is much more helpful for tighter budgets. But the funny thing is no matter how good some of those items are, even if they're better than something for $100k, no one would believe it and everyone wants something more expensive so what difference does it really make?

I mostly think it's a myth you can't get something good for lower prices, just don't expect much for a full budget $1k and below ($2k isn't bad). Everyone thinks the industry is on a decline too, and I think that's actually a lie too. The difference is that much of it has moved to being online in all the lower price catagories. I mean it's not exactly like saying we have a decline in the industry because people aren't buy KEF's low end muddy speakers and a Marantz receiver is an authentic statement. That person never truly contributed to what we care about, directly, anyway. And that person was the majority through the 60's to 90's.

People should appreciate how amazing so much gear is, and how much work is put into it. If you can't afford it with spare cash, save some money to buy. Buy smart. It's a luxury if you can swap gear constantly without having to sell your other stuff, otherwise see it more like an investment. The return is with music, and not necessarily with resale. If you want resale buy McIntosh and forgo the sonic returns. Resale is all about desire, and of coarse people looking to buy expensive stuff that have some money but not the world, are looking to save 20% since that could be $20k or whatever. Those products also enjoy continued service from manufacturers... where as anything sub $1k in price you might as well assume they'll come and go (manufacturers).

 

[bonzo75]

Fortunately, there is still stuff that sounds good to me even if not up to WBF standards.

You mean WBF pricing standards (could be different from WBF sonic standards)

 

[Folsom]

You mean WBF pricing standards (could be different from WBF sonic standards)

I believe this to be true. The challenge is having the time to figure it all out! I don't blame people in the least for just plopping down the money to avoid too much of a search. You're an exceptional person, willing to scour the world to find out what's what.

 

[Bruce B]

You mean WBF pricing standards (could be different from WBF sonic standards)

I'm certainly using equipment that is not up to WBF/pricing standards, but I need to make purchases that make good business sense. How can I justify buying a pair of $200k speakers when I'm having to constantly make client EQ adjustments because of their deficiencies! I'm tired of the preconceived expectation bias when I have folks visit.

 

[astrotoy]

My major cost has been the music. Records and tapes and even CD, SACD, digital downloads, particularly the first two, have exceeded the not insubstantial cost of my equipment over the years. Although I have spent more on my record collection, the cost of my 500 15ips 2 track tapes is rapidly approaching the 15,000 records. In addition, I would have to add the cost of going to some 70 classical music concerts per year (for two people). If, like bonzo, I add the cost of travel necessary to attend our 20+ concerts annually in London, then music wins by an even larger margin.

Larry

 

[Folsom]

Bruce, shouldn't your goal be trying to have the setup as linear and accurate as possible? Once the album is done as well as it can be on that, it can be manipulated by someone's playback rig in their own home. It's not like you'd lose information just because your setup didn't define it as someone else's might, it's there.

I think there might be some confusion. I don't recall anywhere being written that 'the best' must be defined without catagories... What's the best $5k speaker? What's the best $130k speaker? I think that's just fine.

 

[Ron Resnick]

This is an inherently difficult topic (which of our topics isn't?) because of differences in utility curves, differences in perceptions of value for money and different ways to evaluate costs versus benefits and diminishing returns.

The high prices of components in our hobby is not good. Generally it is a function of manufacturing a small volume of complex devices using high-quality parts. If Sony were making 100,000 copies of your favorite super amplifier exactly as it is made today it probably would cost $20,000 (or less) instead of $100,000.

I have had long discussions with Touraj about the cost of his reference tonearm. He said that I would be surprised that there is very little discount when you go from 5 to 20 copies of some custom fabricated part. He said only if you go up to 100 copies does a good discount begin to kick in.

So I begrudgingly understand high prices for complex components. However, I think cable pricing is obscene and bears little relation to input costs.

I, personally, have always dealt with high pricing in our industry by trying to identify what I really want to get, almost no matter how much it costs, and then by taking excellent care of it for many, many years. I have never been an equipment swapper.

I know for myself that if I bought an amplifier which was not the one I truly wanted then I would lose money by selling the intermediate one and buying eventually the one I want down the road. By keeping equipment for many, many years I have found that you don't necessarily have to lose a lot of money.

I have had two main systems in my life thus far: In 1988 I had Magnepan MG-IIIAs with Manley 150s and a conrad-johnson preamp and a VPI HW19 with SME V tonearm carrying a Sumiko Bluepoint cartridge. I switched to Martin Logan Monolith and then Monolith IIIs over a few years.

Around 2002 I upgraded the speakers to ML Prodigys, the amplifiers to VTL MB-750s, the preamp to the Aesthetix Io, the turntable to a TNT Mk IV, the tonearm to a Graham 2.2 and the cartridge to a Benz Micro Ruby 2. This system continued without change for 15 years. (The fact that I loved this system for 15 years tells me that "hatching" can work for me.)

I am now working on the third and last system of my life.

 

[NorthStar]

When we go the music and the movies will keep playing... :b

 

[BruceD]

I am now working on the third and last system of my life.

Ha!--If I had a Buck for every time I thought that

I'd nearly be as rich as you Ron!

BruceD

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce, shouldn't your goal be trying to have the setup as linear and accurate as possible?

Which is why I've stayed away from (relatively) expensive gear. I've had big expensive speakers and other pieces of equipment in here and found they were not linear and have had to compensate for their deficiencies.

 

[RogerD]

The last major equipment I purchased was amplifiers for 6 grand....I couldn't replace them for 60K now a days. Would the replacements sound better? Who cares....I don't. Sometimes you realise it can be an addiction. I know people can spend vast amounts for the latest and greatest,but for me being satisfied is far more important than milking the last ounce out of a bloated cow.

 

[parkcaka]

I'll try to be honest.

It's simply an addiction for me. A spiritually rewarding one. The only damage it does to me is monetary.

So my red line is not about how much I lose but try not to cross the line that my losses restrain me from enjoying other aspects of life such as travelling, dining etc.

But I am ADDICTED. There is no other way to name it. As a 38 year old man thinking about power cords before sleep, that's a fact. There's no rational explanation to that.

But it is SO MUCH FUN! Isn't it? The ups and downs. The connection with the music and the musicians and the components and the makers of these components and the fellow audiophiles and the sweet dealer/friends and shows and the forums and the magazines and the fools and the wise...

I have many other hobbies. I read a lot. I dine and travel around the world all the time. Nothing compares to how I feel when the system plays JUST RIGHT. That magic moment. It plays and feels so right you want to cry. It's not always like that but sometimes, just once in a while it's just perfect just so perfect and ok I'm calling it, it's better than SEX.

So I love it and will keep doing it. It won't matter if I'm dealing with hundred or hundred thousand dollars. There's fun for everybody in this. Going for the holy price/performance monster is as much fun as having the ultimate no cost object component, a gift from the almighty Gods of Hifi.

Love and respect.

Cagdas

 

[es347]

..my current system has an MSRP of right at $80K but I've got less than that invested. Either way it ain't chump change but compared to many of the systems on WBF it pretty much is chump change...the equivalent of a TT or a pr of monoblocks. You gotta admit it's gotten crazy..

 

[JayR]

I think the costs of setting up a good system has really skyrocketed in the last decade. It has become so alarming that even Stereophile has commented about it in the CES2017 wrap up. I remember there use to be a lot written about components costing below 5K or 10K during these show reports. Nowadays, hardly anything.

In my case, I have been looking into upgrading my speakers to get a more full range sound and it looks like it will cost me anywhere from 30K to 50K to get anything even remotely resembling an upgrade. I do not get any accommodation in pricing. I might have to just look in the used market to do this. So, even though I like the B&M stores that I visit and would like to support them, I just cannot afford to.

I believe this trend will push more enthusiasts away from this hobby and eventually the industry will suffer somewhat in the future.

JMO and my 2cents for this lovely Saturday morning.

 

[DaveC]

So I begrudgingly understand high prices for complex components. However, I think cable pricing is obscene and bears little relation to input costs.

Part of it's the market, the emergence of new money in formerly 3rd world countries, the decline of pure communism in China and USSR (Russia), globalization. There's a new market for high end based more on appearances than performance where high end audio has the properties of luxury and conspicuous consumption where that isn't the case in more mature markets. These folks have more money to spend than they know what to do with, much of it is "new money" and is itching to be spent. Hence $$$$ systems and the industry rushing to come out with products this class of buyer finds appealing.

Also, the middle market is pretty much done with rare exceptions of true enthusiasts. We all know about this, I won't repeat it other than to say it's a huge problem for society and personally I agree with Henry Ford's statement that it's better to have 200 people that can afford to buy a car than one person who can afford to buy 200 cars, said in reference to the unusually high pay he gave his workers so they can afford to buy his cars.

Cables are just like anything else, just less well understood. If you think anything in the high end has pricing that directly corresponds to input costs you're mistaken, that's just not the way high end luxury markets work. Instead, there are massive differences between manufacturers as far as input costs, markup, value, etc. across all areas of the industry, not just cables. Remember the LexiCON disc player which was an OPPO stuffed into a fancy chassis? The high end market is just as much about the appearance of luxury and industrial design as it is about performance, in fact I'd say performance isn't really the top priority as much of the high end gear is not even auditioned before purchasing, so that means there are other factors driving the purchase decision and actual sound quality is secondary to these folks. Realistically, there aren't that many people in the world that are super sensitive to sound quality and appreciate the minute (to most) differences often discussed here. There are far more people that want something good, but also something that makes a statement about their status to their peers.

As far as cables specifically, since I make them I understand that some are complete garbage and a horrible value while others are not across all price ranges. It's just that consumers can rarely tell the difference and get frustrated. I thought that by specifying what materials I use to make my cables I'd get a lot of business from folks who understand I'm offering cables at 1/3 to 1/5 the price of my competitors who sell through dealers. The reality is very few people understand that, and those with the cash to afford my cables are often happier spending far more on a popular name brand despite the fact that my cables are usually superior. The fact is, my D4 IC cable has well over a 95% demo to sale rate, which bears out my claims, but very few people are willing to even try my cables simply because they think a more expensive cable has to be better, name recognition, etc... Frustrating, but the truth is all the stuff you guys complain about is perpetuated by your own buying habits. The industry would do ANYTHING to understand what to make for the market... the market drives the industry and not vice versa. Many people complain about the current state of the high end industry, but if you want to know the cause simply look in the mirror.

 

[Ron Resnick]

True, Jay, but as Kedar has been suggesting, with (admittedly very time-consuming) careful auditioning and component matching and speaker/room matching, and with judicious used market purchasing, you can assemble a system which can produce amazing sound for a fraction of $30,000 to $50,000. LL21 has been a master of judicious and patient used-market shopping for top-tier components, and he has an amazing system for a fraction of MSRP.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Part of it's the market, the emergence of new money in formerly 3rd world countries, the decline of pure communism in China and USSR (Russia), globalization. There's a new market for high end based more on appearances than performance where high end audio has the properties of luxury and conspicuous consumption where that isn't the case in more mature markets. These folks have more money to spend than they know what to do with, much of it is "new money" and is itching to be spent. Hence $$$$ systems and the industry rushing to come out with products this class of buyer finds appealing.

Also, the middle market is pretty much done with rare exceptions of true enthusiasts. We all know about this, I won't repeat it other than to say it's a huge problem for society and personally I agree with Henry Ford's statement that it's better to have 200 people that can afford to buy a car than one person who can afford to buy 200 cars, said in reference to the unusually high pay he gave his workers so they can afford to buy his cars.

Cables are just like anything else, just less well understood. If you think anything in the high end has pricing that directly corresponds to input costs you're mistaken, that's just not the way high end luxury markets work. Instead, there are massive differences between manufacturers as far as input costs, markup, value, etc. across all areas of the industry, not just cables. Remember the LexiCON disc player which was an OPPO stuffed into a fancy chassis? The high end market is just as much about the appearance of luxury and industrial design as it is about performance, in fact I'd say performance isn't really the top priority as much of the high end gear is not even auditioned before purchasing, so that means there are other factors driving the purchase decision and actual sound quality is secondary to these folks. Realistically, there aren't that many people in the world that are super sensitive to sound quality and appreciate the minute (to most) differences often discussed here. There are far more people that want something good, but also something that makes a statement about their status to their peers.

As far as cables specifically, since I make them I understand that some are complete garbage and a horrible value while others are not across all price ranges. It's just that consumers can rarely tell the difference and get frustrated. I thought that by specifying what materials I use to make my cables I'd get a lot of business from folks who understand I'm offering cables at 1/3 to 1/5 the price of my competitors who sell through dealers. The reality is very few people understand that, and those with the cash to afford my cables are often happier spending far more on a popular name brand despite the fact that my cables are usually superior. The fact is, my D4 IC cable has well over a 95% demo to sale rate, which bears out my claims, but very few people are willing to even try my cables simply because they think a more expensive cable has to be better, name recognition, etc... Frustrating, but the truth is all the stuff you guys complain about is perpetuated by your own buying habits. The industry would do ANYTHING to understand what to make for the market... the market drives the industry and not vice versa. Many people complain about the current state of the high end industry, but if you want to know the cause simply look in the mirror.

There is a lot of truth and accurate perception and market analysis here!

On cables I admit to abdicating personal auditioning responsibility. I am guilty. I cannot deny it.

Cables (and AC receptacles, for that matter) just don't turn me on. I, like many people who do not have the interest or patience to audition cables, want a well-respected cable which, according to many independent auditions by audiophiles in whose ears we trust, does not screw up the sound. Many years ago I picked Transparent cables not because I auditioned and compared, but because I deduced that if VTL (my amplifier company) demos with Transparent cables, and Martin-Logan (my speaker company) demos with Transparent cables, then Transparent is good enough for me.

It seems to me that cables often reflect the least correlation between input costs and MSRP of any component.

 

[DaveC]

I think the costs of setting up a good system has really skyrocketed in the last decade. It has become so alarming that even Stereophile has commented about it in the CES2017 wrap up. I remember there use to be a lot written about components costing below 5K or 10K during these show reports. Nowadays, hardly anything.

In my case, I have been looking into upgrading my speakers to get a more full range sound and it looks like it will cost me anywhere from 30K to 50K to get anything even remotely resembling an upgrade. I do not get any accommodation in pricing. I might have to just look in the used market to do this. So, even though I like the B&M stores that I visit and would like to support them, I just cannot afford to.

I believe this trend will push more enthusiasts away from this hobby and eventually the industry will suffer somewhat in the future.

JMO and my 2cents for this lovely Saturday morning.

IMO dealers are appealing more to a cost-no-object crowd and the value is to be had with direct-sale companies, but they require some research to find what's possible and only dedicated enthusiasts seem to be willing to do this.