Audio Critique

[Carlos269]

Amir, I visited an audiophile a few weeks ago. He has a wonderful system, but the sound was a bit off. We spent an evening listening to a wide selection of music. The next day, David Karmeli and a couple of us basically removed all connections all footers a bunch of acoustic treatments, silver contact paste, and a bunch of other stuff. All wires were changed to the stuff that David brought with him. We listened again to the same music, and the system was completely transformed. The contrast between different records was increased, but more importantly, all the music sounded more natural. That is dynamic contrast improved, timbre was more accurate, and the system basically came alive. The new wires were all copper.

Peter so what made the difference? Was it the removal of all the footers? The removal of the acoustical treatment? The removal of the silver contact paste? The removal of all the other stuff? Or was it the copper wire substitution? Listening after every change would have been insightful.

I don’t doubt for a minute that you heard a difference but without a step by step procedure it hard to attribute the change most responsible for the difference.

I think that more harm than good can be done when applying devices without any knowledge how to properly use them, and when you undo that damage the sound can be restored, but perhaps not improved.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Peter so what made the difference?

I dont wanna make things more complicated as they are , but the observer makes a differnce .
Quantum effects double slit experiment lol

 

[Carlos269]

I dont wanna make things more complicated as they are , but the observer makes a difference

For sure. Our brains are predisposed to a desired outcome.

 

[Al M.]

For sure. Our brains are predisposed to a desired outcome.

Someone coined a term for the phenomenon: identity-protective cognition.

 

[Argonaut]

Amir, I visited an audiophile a few weeks ago. He has a wonderful system, but the sound was a bit off. We spent an evening listening to a wide selection of music. The next day, David Karmeli and a couple of us basically removed all connections all footers a bunch of acoustic treatments, silver contact paste, and a bunch of other stuff. All wires were changed to the stuff that David brought with him. We listened again to the same music, and the system was completely transformed. The contrast between different records was increased, but more importantly, all the music sounded more natural. That is dynamic contrast improved, timbre was more accurate, and the system basically came alive. The new wires were all copper.

Well …As You have been all about commercial disclosure and transparency on the forum of late, may I enquire .

Was this Service of which you speak performed by Karmeli on a paid consultancy basis ?

And if so , who arranged for this commercial arrangement . Yourself ? did you receive a fee for this facilitation ? if so surely you should disclose any commercial arrangement that you might have with Karmeli’ and his audio consultancy business , Or is this merely an Infomercial !

Purely in the interests of open disclosure , I am sure you understand .

 

[PeterA]

Peter so what made the difference? Was it the removal of all the footers? The removal of the acoustical treatment? The removal of the silver contact paste? The removal of all the other stuff? Or was it the copper wire substitution? Listening after every change would have been insightful.

I don’t doubt for a minute that you heard a difference but without a step by step procedure it hard to attribute the change most responsible for the difference.

I think that more harm than good can be done when applying devices without any knowledge how to properly use them, and when you undo that damage the sound can be restored, but perhaps not improved.

Carlos, we were only there for a couple days and there was a lot of work to do and I was basically an observer. DDK has done all of those listening comparisons you mention. We didn’t have time for all that. I was just helping out.

I did a bunch of that with my old system and I learned those lessons. My point is that my experience supports the post that Amir wrote.

The goal was not to compare footers and silver paste and certain wires. The goal was to get the system back to a solid foundation to hear the music on the record. The result was a more natural listening experience, so the efforts were successful. i’ve had silver paste in my system. I don’t need to do more direct comparisons.

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, we were only there for a couple days and there was a lot of work to do and I was basically an observer. DDK has done all of those listening comparisons you mention. We didn’t have time for all that. I was just helping out.

I did a bunch of that with my old system and I learned those lessons. My point is that my experience supports the post that Amir wrote.

The goal was not to compare footers and silver paste and certain wires. The goal was to get the system back to a solid foundation to hear the music on the record. The result was a more natural listening experience, so the efforts were successful. i’ve had silver paste in my system. I don’t need to do more direct comparisons.

I see so you took the exercise on with a forgone conclusion. I’m just a curious individual that enjoys learning and increasing my knowledge. It sounds like there is a specified configuration that yields predictable results.

It is that steadfast actions that can only be undertaken with a high level of confidence that it would yield a predetermine outcome without the need to sample the the result along the way. Progression is typically carried on with analysis.

It is interesting to me that the same recipe is reported to work every time and in every instance on different systems. With such strong conviction, I think that a White Paper is in order. Would love to attend the next Audio Engineering Society (AES) convention to get the details of this breakthrough and the peer review commentaries regarding it.

 

[thedudeabides]

We know Audiophiles or Audio Reviewers have different taste/ideas when they listen to an Audio System and their Judgment is different together. Some audiophiles think every audiophile has personal taste and audio judgment is relative not absolute.
I think this is not true .
We can debate here for more than 1000 posts but finally I think We can have right Judgment and the audio critique is not relative subject.
There are some parameters that may affects on judgments like the music type we use for test but finally the audio critique is not relative.

A very flawed set of assumptions IMHO. Good luck Amir. I am going to pass.

 

[Al M.]

A very flawed set of assumptions IMHO. Good luck Amir. I am going to pass.

Yes, it's plainly wrong.

Amir writes:
"Some audiophiles think every audiophile has personal taste and audio judgment is relative not absolute.
I think this is not true."

Of course it's true. I have multiple proof of that in my personal experience. Heck, audiophiles sitting next to each other in a live concert sometimes cannot even agree on the sound of what they hear. So how could they agree about stereo systems which, since no system can do everything equally well, necessarily distill out of the live music experience and emphasize certain things more than others, according to the taste and listening priorities of the owner?

 

[PeterA]

I see so you took the exercise on with a forgone conclusion. I’m just a curious individual that enjoys learning and increasing my knowledge. It sounds like there is a specified configuration that yields predictable results.

It is that steadfast actions that can only be undertaken with a high level of confidence that it would yield a predetermine outcome without the need to sample the the result along the way. Progression is typically carried on with analysis.

It is interesting to me that the same recipe is reported to work every time and in every instance on different systems. With such strong conviction, I think that a White Paper is in order. Would love to attend the next Audio Engineering Society (AES) convention to get the details of this breakthrough and the peer review commentaries regarding it.

Did you read the part where I wrote that I thought the sound was much more natural after the changes, more dynamic, more accurate timbre, and simply more alive sounding, and I preferred the end result to what was there previously?

I simply shared what I heard. You can sit there and criticize the methods and my conclusions from afar all you want. It really doesn’t matter to me. I observed and learned something by watching the changes and then listening.

 

[Carlos269]

Did you read the part where I wrote that I thought the sound was much more natural after the changes, more dynamic, more accurate timbre, and simply more alive sounding, and I preferred the end result to what was there previously?

I did. That was the basis of my observations.

I simply shared what I heard. You can sit there and criticize the methods and my conclusions from afar all you want. It really doesn’t matter to me. I observed and learned something by watching the changes and then listening.

Good. The experience with this gentleman’s system is strikingly similar to your own experience with your previous system at home. Not criticizing your conclusions. If what t I have to say should matter to you, that’s it‘s okay I’m not here to convert anyone or to deprogram someone who has been indoctrinated into a way of thinking.

You know Peter, sometimes it is best to step back and reasses. On the M7 thread you stated that the plastic binding posts on your Lamm ML2 amplifiers sounded best. When did you listen to brass binding posts, copper binding posts, rhodium binding posts, composite or any other type of binding posts on those amps? It is statements like that one that make others questions if there’s a ventriloquist in the mist.

 

[PeterA]

You know Peter, sometimes it is best to step back and reasses. On the M7 thread you stated that the plastic binding posts on your Lamm ML2 amplifiers sounded best. When did you listen to brass binding posts, copper binding posts, rhodium binding posts, composite or any other type of binding posts on those amps? It is statements like that one that make others questions if there’s a ventriloquist in the mist.

I own two pairs of ML2 amplifiers. I use one and one is a back up pair in storage. Both the first series before the ML2.1 version. The second pair is late production and the only change between the two of them are the metal binding posts versus the original plastic ones. This is what Vladimir Lamm told David Karmeli. I compared them about six months ago. The earlier version with the plastic binding posts sounds better. I even changed all the tubes to be identical to make sure. I listened and compared both of them for about a week. No, it was not a double blind test.

If I make a statement like that, I’ve usually made a direct comparison in my own system. Like with my Walker silver paste test. Sometimes I reiterate the opinion of others who’ve done the experiments themselves and in whose opinions I have a lot of faith.

In the other thread I simply wrote that it is possible that the plastic sounds better in response to someone denigrating then Magico binding posts. My comment is not that radical.

My first pair of Magico speakers had metal binding posts. later speakers switched to plastic. Elon Wolfe was asked about this and I think he said the plastic sounds better. It is possible, right?

 

[Carlos269]

I own two pairs of ML2 amplifiers. I use one and one is a back up pair in storage. Both the first series before the ML2.1 version. The second pair is late production and the only change between the two of them are the metal binding posts versus the original plastic ones. This is what Vladimir Lamm told David Karmeli. I compared them about six months ago. The earlier version with the plastic binding posts sounds better. I even changed all the tubes to be identical to make sure. I listened and compared both of them for about a week. No, it was not a double blind test.

But you only tried two sets of binding posts. “Best” implies completeness.

If I make a statement like that, I’ve usually made a direct comparison in my own system. Like with my Walker silver paste test. Sometimes I reiterate the opinion of others who’ve done the experiments themselves and in whose opinions I have a lot of faith.

This is what everyone seems to assume, that you are relating the experiences of other who’s opinions you have a lot of faith on. “Faith”, what an interest choice of word for someone who is trying to dispel the “disciple” label.

In the other thread I simply wrote that it is possible that the plastic sounds better in response to someone denigrating then Magico binding posts. My comment is not that radical.

I thought that it is an overreaching comment.

My first pair of Magico speakers had metal binding posts. later speakers switched to plastic. Elon Wolfe was asked about this and I think he said the plastic sounds better. It is possible, right?

It is possible. To meet the requiremen for absoluteness these kind of assertions require them to meet a more rigorous burden of proof.

 

[PeterA]

But you only tried two sets of binding posts. “Best” implies completeness.

This is what everyone seems to assume, that you are relating the experiences of other who’s opinions you have a lot of faith on. “Faith”, what an interest choice of word for someone who is trying to dispel the “disciple” label.

I thought that it is an overreaching comment.

It is possible. To meet the requiremen for absoluteness these kind of assertions require them to meet a more rigorous burden of proof.

Carlos, Keep doing your thing. I never wrote best anything about binding posts. Good luck selling your device, the solution to every audiophile's problems.

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, Keep doing your thing. I never wrote best anything about binding posts. Good luck selling your device, the solution to every audiophile's problems.

Thanks. I’m not actively trying to sell the System-Remastering system, but it’s not like me to keep something that could help others all to myself. I’m actually thinking of writing a book when I get some time about this silly hobby and how many get hoodwinked and refuse embrace tools and advancements that would take the trial and error and equipment carousel out of the norm. In case you haven’t figured out my thinking is on a different level than the herd and the one thing that I have never wanted to be was to be part of the indoctrinated. I wish you good luck shaking the spell that you are under.

 

[treitz3]

Carlos, I gotta be honest here. The fact that you seemingly put down people and tout your remastering system the way you do, combined with lack of humbleness along with the degrading forum members as indoctrinated and what seems to reflect your stance as being beneath you is getting old. If you want to write a book? By all means, go out and do it.

But please, lose the "holier than thou" stance you seem to have. To me, it's like a constant infomercial that does not belong on so many threads. I do not type this post as a "moderator", but post it as a regular member who simply and honestly shakes his head everytime I read your diatribe.

If you really had a remastering system that was worthy enough to tout it the way you do (without belittling other forum members), you would put it out there on the market. Until then? It's all hogwash to me (as a member of this forum).

Tom

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, I gotta be honest here. The fact that you seemingly put down people and tout your remastering system the way you do, combined with lack of humbleness along with the degrading forum members as indoctrinated and what seems to reflect your stance as being beneath you is getting old. If you want to write a book? By all means, go out and do it.

But please, lose the "holier than thou" stance you seem to have. To me, it's like a constant infomercial that does not belong on so many threads. I do not type this post as a "moderator", but post it as a regular member who simply and honestly shakes his head everytime I read your diatribe.

If you really had a remastering system that was worthy enough to tout it the way you do (without belittling other forum members), you would put it out there on the market. Until then? It's all hogwash to me (as a member of this forum).

Tom

Tom, fair enough. At Steve’s, the site co-owner, request I don’t write much or details about my System-Remastering process here, only when absolutely called on. I have many, MANY other systems that I spend a great deal of time documenting and writing about, which none have the System-Remastering process. Head over to Hi Fi Haven and check them out.

Regarding the efficacy of my System-Remastering process, considering that I conceptualized it, developed it, designed and implemented it for myself and its currently used only by myself, I guess that I don’t have to prove it to anybody because I have already proved it to myself.

You have always had an itch for me. Some here do think that I bring substance and a counterpoint to the table. I’m sorry if I rock the boat. I don’t try to insult, be condescending, or pedantic, belittle, or be “holier than thou”, but I can’t manage to close my eyes and look the other way, ignore, pretend or let things go when I know that what is being stated is wrong. Silence is consent. But don’t worry these days most of my activities online are elsewhere and believe it or not, that group, with a strong sense of individualism, don’t find my writings as off putting as you and others here do. I get it, no one wants to be told that they are doing or heading about things all wrong, I on the other hand like to be corrected or directed in a different direction if there is a smarter way.

 

[PYP]

But you only tried two sets of binding posts. “Best” implies completeness.

It is possible. To meet the requiremen for absoluteness these kind of assertions require them to meet a more rigorous burden of proof.

You are setting a very high bar for the hobbyist/enthusiast. Nothing wrong with expressing your standard. But I agree with @treitz3 that your approach need not belittle how others achieve their own pleasure from this hobby (which like every other endeavor includes its share of beliefs and superstitions).

That said, I think a simple experiment when changing anything in the listening chain is to simply unplug everything and then re-attach/power up and have a listen. Live with that difference, if any, for a while before introducing further variables. Of course, not everyone wants to go about this hobby in an analytical way and the hobby is flexible enough to accommodate many paths.

 

[thedudeabides]

You have always had an itch for me. Some here do think that I bring substance and a counterpoint to the table. I’m sorry if I rock the boat. I don’t try to insult, be condescending, or pedantic, or “holier than thou”, but I can’t manage to close my eyes and look the other way, ignore, or let things go when I know that they are wrong.

Tom is absolutely correct. I do hope you spend your online activities elsewhere on sites where people recognize and fully appreciate the fact that you are always right and never wrong.

 

[PeterA]

You are setting a very high bar for the hobbyist/enthusiast. Nothing wrong with expressing your standard. But I agree with @treitz3 that your approach need not belittle how others achieve their own pleasure from this hobby (which like every other endeavor includes its share of beliefs and superstitions).

That said, I think a simple experiment when changing anything in the listening chain is to simply unplug everything and then re-attach/power up and have a listen. Live with that difference, if any, for a while before introducing further variables. Of course, not everyone wants to go about this hobby in an analytical way and the hobby is flexible enough to accommodate many paths.

I simply wrote that it is possible that Magico plastic binding posts sound better than the metal ones. I must have offended Carlos because he basically asked me to prove it, or how could I know such a thing and make such a claim. Well, I did the comparison myself with two sets of amps in my own system over time, back and forth. Then the bar moved even higher, ignoring that he was wrong. Carlos then moved the bar to is plastic better than all possible metals? Who knows? I never asked that question or made any such claims. No one asked for absolutes or what is the best possible binding post. Carlos took the opportunity to give a speech from his podium and pump himself while arguing with me.

What I did do was remove all accessories from my old system, one by one, until none were left. I noted differences in what I heard each time. When it was all gone, I tried to reintroduce some to bad effect. I did this experiment over time in my own system. I then witnessed David Karmeli do the same, but all at once, in another system a month ago. We had no time to do it slower or more methodically. He was after the end result, not simply repeating the same experiments and changes he has done dozens of times. The change was equally dramatic in that system as it was in mine. No surprise there. Sure, only two data points for me, but that is something. When someone claims he prefers copper to silver wires, as Amir did, I tend to agree based on my own limited experience.

We can only do as much as we are able and willing to do. This is supposed to be fun. Sometimes, the sellers and others come here to criticize members all the while constantly touting what they are selling. This forum is surely a marketplace because this is where the audience is. I accept that, wish them well, and move on. Insults come with the territory. We are all grown up. No big deal.