Audio Critique

[Amir]

4. Mixing and matching of other audio components after Choosing power amplifier and Speaker

when you choose your room and speaker and amplifier then you can go for Pre amplifier and DAC and Transport and Turntable and phonostage and ...
4.1 all voltage ranges should be match , for example the maximum output voltage of dac should not be higher than maximum input voltage of pre-amplifier. Some dacs like MSB and CEC and dCS has output voltage of 6-7 volts (XlR output) .

4.2 the ideal condition of voltage transfer between component A to component B is the input impedance of B should be 1000 times more than output impedance of A. Many tube dacs can not perfectly drive low input impedance of SS pre-amps. We should care about perfect Impedance matching of components in the chain.

4.3 ground loops and earth connection type of components and chassis voltage of different components and AC polarity of components should be considered.
Some electronics have floated ground and most systems have not floated ground, some systems are fully balanced and some systems are not fully balanced , connecting different components with different designs may degrade the sound because of some mismatch .

4.4 every component has his own sound and connecting very different sounding components may cause mismatch in sound. I do not use tube dacs and tube pre amplifier in a fullrange SS system.
All you hear about adding tube preamplifier to soften the sound is awful solution and they try to compensate an error with another wrong decision. Many wrong judgments in audio reviews come from mismatch problems. Stereophile and TAS and most magazines do not care about this and only put the device on the chain and start to review.

 

[Amir]

5. Some tunes like considering vibration control

Vibration control is very important , turntables and speakers generate mechanical vibration and you can ask your questions from david (@ddk) he is very expert .

my vibration control experience is very limited.
It seems many vibration control devices are not good for natural sound. Again I should say my experience is very limited and you can ask your questions from david.

 

[PeterA]

Amir,

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on this very important subject. You have clearly investigated this at a high-level and spoken to other experts. It is worth recognizing that some people have greater experience and knowledge in these areas than others. One of the great things about an audio form is the ability to share this information and learn from those who understand it better. The result, will be a more enjoyable listening experience.

 

[Amir]

Peter,

Thank you

I believe high end is very very hard and super complex subject.

I allways told most audiophiles are wasting their money and time and There is only two option:
- Stop high end game and sell all of their high end equipments
- stop reading audio press and stop reading audio forums and call an expert audiophile like David and ask him to help

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Thank you

I believe high end is very very hard and super complex subject.

I allways told most audiophiles are wasting their money and time and There is only two option:
- Stop high end game and sell all of their high end equipments
- stop reading audio press and stop reading audio forums and call an expert audiophile like David and ask him to help

I have met a few audiophile experts here and learned a lot from them. It is a humbling because I realize how little I know about the hobby This is a great place to meet others who may share your interests and from whom you can learn. There are many different points of view here, so it is important to sort them all out and determine what is important to you.

 

[PYP]

2. Amplifier speaker matching

this is very important , David (@ddk) believes we should first choose amplifier then choose the matched speaker , I can not disagree him but in the end your combination (speaker/amplifier) should be perfect match. I think matching is not only about drive and sufficient power. Matching is about all we hear and will improve the sound by wide margin.
I never heard perfect dynamic sound from combination of tubes with big dynamic driver speakers (under 90db) . You may disagree me but I think for perfect dynamics and bass extension and playing complex big orchestral music you should go for 5way-7way horns if you like tube amplifier.

For low efficiency speakers you need much more power and always much more power is not good for sound. solidstate amplifiers were not good in past but now we see good solidstate amplifiers in this market like Vitus, CH, Dartzeel . Most speaker and amplifier reviews in audio press are not trusted because they review without considering speaker amplifier matching

Well, I respectively disagree with amp first. My experience has been speakers first, not only because they govern the sound more than any component (at least that has been my experience using transparent gear) but also because they need to fit the room. For example, if dipoles are your thing, you need sufficient space behind the speakers. If you like large corner horns, for example, then the room needs to accommodate that. It may not.

My goals are musical engagement, the ability to listen to new releases and lots of music that is new to me. If the setup sounds good to me and my wife, the task is done (and if she can easily use the setup, including selecting music, saving playlists, etc.). I don't distrust "experts" but don't find them necessary for my own experimentation and goals.

My room seems to make speaker placement easy. My relatively modestly-sized speakers, set off center due to the room design and furnishings, work well in 5,400 cf. The cathedral ceiling helps too, I believe. The open floor plan expands that space even further and allows listening in other rooms if desired. Room furnishings help quite a bit. Four diffuser/absorber panels fine tune the sound.

 

[Amir]

I think we should ask david why he prefer this method (first amplifier , Second Loudspeaker) .

What I know about amplifiers is the kernel of Harmonics (music harmonics) is in amplifier.

I know many things affect on harmonics but the main factor is amplifier.

 

[PYP]

I think we should ask david why he prefer this method (first amplifier , Second Loudspeaker) .

What I know about amplifiers is the kernel of Harmonics (music harmonics) is in amplifier.

I know many things affect on harmonics but the main factor is amplifier.

I assume we have been talking about "passive" systems. It is interesting how the equation changes for fully active speakers, partially active (only bass internally powered) and integrated systems (DAC and amplification included inside speakers).

 

[Amir]

Fully class d active speakers and dsp speakers and all in one solutions (dsp/dac/pre/crossover/class d power/speaker inside) are far from an advanced audio playback. What david says is not about low level sound reproduction.

 

[PYP]

Fully class d active speakers and dsp speakers and all in one solutions (dsp/dac/pre/crossover/class d power/speaker inside) are far from an advanced audio playback. What david says is not about low level sound reproduction.

Interesting. Which ones have you listened to that you don't like?

 

[mtemur]

I have spend many many times/effort/money but all of those high end AC solutions were awful. If you hear good sound from ac conditioners it means your system is not transparent or your ears like compress sound more.

Bold words. Someone may argue that your ears like radio frequency disturbance or RFI cause it’s inevitably everywhere and in every AC line in today’s world, if you’re not living in a cave.

How are you getting rid of those electrical disturbances caused by many modern day electronics from switching power supplies to cell phones, wifi, communication towers, satellite systems etc when AC lines known to work like antennas?

And no! filtering inside the components are not capable of totally eliminating it.

 

[Gregadd]

A/C filter
Power cord
USB Filter
I have some magnetic rings I am going to try.

 

[PYP]

Bold words. Someone may argue that your ears like radio frequency disturbance or RFI cause it’s inevitably everywhere and in every AC line in today’s world, if you’re not living in a cave.

How are you getting rid of those electrical disturbances caused by many modern day electronics from switching power supplies to cell phones, wifi, communication towers, satellite systems etc when AC lines known to work like antennas?

And no! filtering inside the components are not capable of totally eliminating it.

Agree that this is a bold generalization that isn't true for every system. True, the conditioner has to work with your particular gear. I've tried an isolation transformer, balanced power, filter-based and capacitor-based conditioners. Those are all valid approaches and work for many people. Ultimately, these didn't work for me and my last try was a Shunyata Research power distributor.

I was a bit skeptical, but an in-home demo with return privileges showed only strengths (especially, timing, tone and timbre improvements) and no weaknesses. I'm not looking for improvements in sound per se however, rather further engagement with music is the goal. The Shunyata delivered that.

I didn't break it in with a fan or other heavy load, so it took a long while to fully open up. Within the long demo period I already heard the improvements and was actually surprised when it became even more transparent. I consider it the foundation that is absolutely necessary for most transparent sound. Oh, and it protects the gear. Good stuff.

 

[Amir]

I think about two questions :

1- is there better sound or sound quality is relative to listener?
2- if yes , does better sound improve enjoyment in a linear way?

I think good sound is there and it is not relative to listener.
What you read about taste is not about sound , it is about non properly setup condition and non-expert audio judgments. Because of performance limits in audio parts/components you may prefer system A to system B upon music type.

I told before I just see only two types of audio parts/components.

the problem is many audiophiles are not familiar with good sound and they did not listened to a reference system like David system.

many audiophiles do not know about importance of dynamics.

in 2007 I wrote about sound parameters:
1 - Presence/Image
2 - Harmonics/Tone
3 - Dynamics

These three parameters are for me and in my experience most audiophiles does not care about dynamics. They prefer a transparent compress sound to a dynamic sound.

blacker background , more resolution , more laidback sweet sound, these are not good when you trade off dynamics. Most high feedback transistor amplifiers and dead sounding speakers are in this category.

we should learn from experts about understanding good sound.
Do you believe most audio reviewers know good sound? I think No

 

[Amir]

2- if yes , does better sound improve enjoyment in a linear way?

Absolutely not

I enjoy my handsfree when I climb fast and the subject of Music enjoyment / High End system is a complex subject.

I do not believe in spending thousands of dollars will change your music enjoyments.
Do not blame me , Audio is just a tool for listening music not more. High end is a good hobby but not needed for music enjoyment

 

[PYP]

I think about two questions :

1- is there better sound or sound quality is relative to listener?
2- if yes , does better sound improve enjoyment in a linear way?

I think good sound is there and it is not relative to listener.
What you read about taste is not about sound , it is about non properly setup condition and non-expert audio judgments. Because of performance limits in audio parts/components you may prefer system A to system B upon music type.

I told before I just see only two types of audio parts/components.

the problem is many audiophiles are not familiar with good sound and they did not listened to a reference system like David system.

many audiophiles do not know about importance of dynamics.

in 2007 I wrote about sound parameters:
1 - Presence/Image
2 - Harmonics/Tone
3 - Dynamics

These three parameters are for me and in my experience most audiophiles does not care about dynamics. They prefer a transparent compress sound to a dynamic sound.

blacker background , more resolution , more laidback sweet sound, these are not good when you trade off dynamics. Most high feedback transistor amplifiers and dead sounding speakers are in this category.

we should learn from experts about understanding good sound.
Do you believe most audio reviewers know good sound? I think No

I don't find audiophile terminology very helpful. To me, transparency means the equipment let's the gear disappear and you are left with music that is close to live (of course, no system can fool you into thinking it is live no matter how much you spend or how many experts have tweaked your setup).

So, to me transparency encompasses drive, dynamics, tone, timbre, bloom/breath, openness, naturalness, ease, fluency, etc. But these aren't too helpful because you wouldn't describe live music that way.

I don't know that any music lover would want compressed sound. Live music doesn't sound that way. Agreed that getting something akin to live sound takes experience and time. And, practically speaking, we have to settle with a "good enough" solution, which is different for each of us and depends upon personal taste, budget, the reality of our listening room and the like.

 

[Amir]

Most audiophiles are less sensitive to dynamics.

What things can compress dynamics?

- bad speaker placement for having best soundstage
- low efficiency Loudspeakers
- amplifier can not drive loudspeaker
- bad AC quality and bad AC wiring in home
- bad PSU design for audio components
- high negative feedback design
- connecting mismatch components together
- sitting in a bad area
- connecting a high voltage dac to low voltage pre
- bad/compress records
- All AC filters/Conditioners
- Most AC regenerators
- Many Audiophile AC Cables

 

[PeterA]

Most audiophiles are less sensitive to dynamics.

What things can compress dynamics?

- bad speaker placement for having best soundstage
- low efficiency Loudspeakers
- amplifier can not drive loudspeaker
- bad AC quality and bad AC wiring in home
- bad PSU design for audio components
- high negative feedback design
- connecting mismatch components together
- sitting in a bad area
- connecting a high voltage dac to low voltage pre
- bad/compress records
- All AC filters/Conditioners
- Most AC regenerators
- Many Audiophile AC Cables

I wish I had learned this earlier. Very important for realism.

 

[PYP]

For analog, I can understand minimizing or eliminating AC "conditioning," but my experience with digital is that while digital is fussy with AC conditioners, conditioners can be very beneficial too if the right one is found. The right one does not compress the sound.

Overall, the recording is the primary limitation on dynamics.

 

[Amir]

In my experience digital is more sensitive to AC quality and some believe we should isolate it from other components.
Digital is also sensitive to ground loop between Transport and DAC.

the speaker room interaction (speaker position) is the primary limitation on dynamics.