Audio Critique

[NC Lee]

Peter
My english language is not good and I should describe my opinion more clear , expert audiophile to me means the man/woman who has higher experience like David.

Bonzo welcome to this topic
I know you listened to many many audio systems and you think you are helping audiophiles when you share your experience but I think this in not enough.

I have wrote about who are experts in this topic .

Thank you for the hours spent explaining your view of audio system development. I am learning from you.
And thanks to the posters for remaining open minded- not always the case here when we are challenged with the likes of blind testing.
The take away is what we all intrinsically know- improving our audio systems is a difficult challenge.
My recent experience: a true expert came to my house and spent an hour on speaker placement. Six inches difference would increase some frequencies and decrease others. This after I put up a 7' x 10' 4" rock wool panel on the wall behind the speakers- that suddenly allowed me to better hear my expensive hardware. Mt system sounds so different I need time to come to terms with it.
This experience, and decades of visiting dealers audition rooms, leads me to believe the only way to evaluate equipment is in my home. Those showrooms are rarely set up well.

 

[PeterA]

also, what is your plan to extract what vyger RS does in Chris’ system

My plan is to take my own well known records listen to the system, and make my own judgment about how natural it sounds and how much resolution is extracted from the grooves by listening based on my memory of the sound of live music.

it will not be easy to extract with the turntable and cartridge you’re doing in the unfamiliar lumen system. I understand that.

 

[bonzo75]

My plan is to take my own well known records listen to the system, and make my own judgment about how natural it sounds and how much resolution is extracted from the grooves by listening based on my memory of the sound of live music.

sorry, my question was how do you separate it from the sound of the M9 with pilium

 

[Al M.]

So if you are not an expert how do you decide who an expert is? Usually when we don’t know something, people who know more all seem to be experts if we agree with them

I respect the opinions of some experts more than that of others, but I have never found an expert whom I agree with on everything -- not even close. It is always good to keep a critical mind and think and experiment for yourself, and never trust anyone blindly.

For starters, every expert's opinions are biased and to a good extent subjective, that is human nature. They may have experience, but that does not entirely remove, or may even enforce, bias.

 

[Hessec]

sorry, my question was how do you separate it from the sound of the M9 with pilium

With a system this complex, and likely unknown contributors, it would be impossible to get a handle on a specific cartridge or TT contribution to the chain. I can also run the Kondo Ginga with Koetsu Onyx Platinum into the room. You could A/B the two of those vs. digital etc... Then again, the VYGER is completely different sounding than the Ginga.

The TT is a completely different presentation than digital. The RS is completely different sounding than the Onyx Platinum. That's to my ears. I know all the players though.

I had the Onyx Platinum on the VYGER before the Red Sparrow. The Onyx is more dynamic and has more "bite" if you will. The RS is very smooth with no highlighting of frequencies that I can detect. All the micro/macro information is there but presented in a different perspective. Which one is more natural is user perspective.

My .02c.

All are invited to come listen.

 

[bonzo75]

With a system this complex, and likely unknown contributors, it would be impossible to get a handle on a specific cartridge or TT contribution to the chain. I can also run the Kondo Ginga with Koetsu Onyx Platinum into the room. You could A/B the two of those vs. digital etc... Then again, the VYGER is completely different sounding than the Ginga.

The TT is a completely different presentation than digital. The RS is completely different sounding than the Onyx Platinum. That's to my ears. I know all the players though.

I had the Onyx Platinum on the VYGER before the Red Sparrow. The Onyx is more dynamic and has more "bite" if you will. The RS is very smooth with no highlighting of frequencies that I can detect. All the micro/macro information is there but presented in a different perspective. Which one is more natural is user perspective.

My .02c.

All are invited to come listen.

thanks Chris, the Kondo Ginga sounded great next to the Da Vinci with Lyra Olympos, in a full Kondo system. The DV had both the Atlas and the DV cart.

 

[PeterA]

sorry, my question was how do you separate it from the sound of the M9 with pilium

I think you can learn some things like degree of information retrieval. But it only goes one way. If an unfamiliar system lacks resolution, it’s hard to determine where the bottleneck is. on the other hand, if I hear the same degree of resolution or information retrieval from these familiar recordings that I’ve heard in other highly resolving systems, it suggests it’s being extracted by the cartridge in that unfamiliar system. Just one Datapoint Bonzo. Ideally one would want to hear it in different contexts to form a stronger opinion. I’m not an expert so will not make any definitive claims after hearing that one system about any of the parts. It will basically be a whole system room assessment and not have any value beyond my single opinion.

 

[Hessec]

thanks Chris, the Kondo Ginga sounded great next to the Da Vinci with Lyra Olympos, in a full Kondo system. The DV had both the Atlas and the DV cart.

Darn it! Now you've got me wondering how the Vyger RS combo would sound on the Kondo system with Diesis Roma Triode. Some day I guess.

 

[PeterA]

An “expert” is a person that has studied and continues to study a subject. Experts are typically not peddling their own products but evaluating products and making recommendations. Experts should strive to be impartial and remove any doubts of impartiality by not taking financial compensation from manufacturers.

i’m not sure I understand this. Are you saying that Dave Wilson is not an expert on speaker design or Nelson Pass is not an expert on amplifier design when they answer questions about their own designs? How about Jim Smith promoting his own book on audio tips and getting better sound

Can you share an example of someone whom others considered an expert who is peddling his own product?

For example, in the USA we have a magazine called Consumer Reports. They take no advertising dollars and purchase all of their own products (even cars) to evaluate.

This sounds a lot like what Jay on YouTube does. He does not have advertising and purchases everything he reviews. I presume consumer reports sells their products after they are tested and Jay seems to do the same. I guess he now represents a few products also. Rex paid him for advice.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Manuel Huber from FM acoustics is a real expert

He sells to audiophiles studios etc his products are high regarded and sound awesome
If you look at the internals it doesn t look much , but the prices are astronomical .
He uses electronic filters , there are no passive filters in the speakers , but nothing to complain soundwise .
If you can ask such a high prices and get it , then you absolutely know what you re doing .

 

[andromedaaudio]

Rex paid him for advice.

I told you its a funny industry

 

[bonzo75]

Are you saying that Dave Wilson is not an expert on speaker design or Nelson Pass is not an expert on amplifier design when they answer questions about their own designs?

yes they are experts when they answer questions on their own design, and compared to people like us who cannot design.

however how will you decide if Dave Wilson’s expertise is greater than 15 other designers, or if his design has some flaws? To do so you need to understand all 15 yourself and be quite good yourself. And based on the Wilson pass logic you quoted, all the reviewers Amir is trashing, is an expert on his own writing.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I respect the opinions of some experts more than that of others, but I have never found an expert whom I agree with on everything -- not even close. It is always good to keep a critical mind and think and experiment for yourself, and never trust anyone blindly.

For starters, every expert's opinions are biased and to a good extent subjective, that is human nature. They may have experience, but that does not entirely remove, or may even enforce, bias.

The etymology of the word expert from etymology online…

expert (adj.)
late 14c., "having had experience… directly from Latin expertus (contracted from *experitus), "tried, proved, known by experience," past participle of experiri "to try, test," from ex "out of" (see ex-) + peritus "experienced, tested," from PIE *per-yo-, suffixed form of root *per- (3) "to try, risk."


As opposed to just having knowledge or information from having only read or been told the actual validation for being an expert only comes with moving past received knowledge and by trialling and experiencing for the self. I suppose the risk mentioned is you then allow yourself the opportunity to realise your researched knowledge base and assumptions can just be wrong… that you have tested truly and you observe the limits of both your knowledge and your experience.

There are guys here who know a lot about specific things but being expert is specifically subject matter limited. In teaching being a SME (subject matter expert) maps to a very specific set of criteria (unit by unit based rather than a whole of course expertise). As a scientist I’m sure you completely get that Al.

I always find it disappointing when people with some genuine specific engineering or science background or expertise with a very niche limited range of experiences and preferences use this as some kind of justification to bluff and puff up and stretch their expertise well outside of their actual knowledge base and real expertise and experience.

 

[bonzo75]

The problem is this whole expert discussion is a red herring and now all of you have been led to discussing that.

It is quite a common issue that people in the gym hire the best built coach in the gym, and despite that their own body/fitness level seldom improve other than by a minor delta, while others get the process from either some other coach or themselves and progress rapidly. So which coach is the expert, the best built one who does not give you results or the fat one who does? And if it was so easy to get an expert, why do so many pick the wrong coach/mentor in various instances in life - otherwise progress would have been easy. Point to a guy and say - there is the expert, he eats spinach, therefore I will eat spinach and have biceps like popeye. Which is the discussion Amir is leading, instead of discussing diet and exercise regime.

 

[the sound of Tao]

The problem is this whole expert discussion is a red herring and now all of you have been led to discussing that.

It is quite a common issue that people in the gym hire the best built coach in the gym, and despite that their own body/fitness level seldom improve other than by a minor delta, while others get the process from either some other coach or themselves and progress rapidly. So which coach is the expert, the best built one who does not give you results or the fat one who does? And if it was so easy to get an expert, why do so many pick the wrong coach/mentor in various instances in life - otherwise progress would have been easy. Point to a guy and say - there is the expert, he eats spinach, therefore I will eat spinach and have biceps like popeye. Which is the discussion Amir is leading, instead of discussing diet and exercise regime.

With David and Bill having gone we lost two proven and valuable subject matter experts. We still do have some left though thank heavens… and you and Leif and some others are hopefully going to keep at it even more now to pick up the slack on our collective data points on those with broader horn expertise No pressure though…

 

[andromedaaudio]

@ Peter if a person goes to a car dealership to choose a new car who do you think is / needs to be the expert ...
Off course the consumer himself , the rest is merely selling a product and if a reviewer makes something of the sale through some sort of means he is on the opposing side as well .
You have a lot of experience music and system wise , there is no need for someone telling you what to do .
Consumer is king " dont like it dont buy it " simple.

 

[bonzo75]

With David and Bill having gone we lost two proven subject matter experts. We still do have some left though thank heavens… and you and Leif are hopefully going to keep at it even more now to pick up the slack on our collective data points on broader horn expertise

It is not about expertise. Amir should just list his activities and process of listening and judging the components. He seems to be taking a path where he has not even heard the Lamm, and deciding what amplifier is best and who is the expert. At least go and verify some data points. He may be right or wrong, there is always a 50:50 being either. He is doing a lot of arm-chair judgements without listening - how will he know how reviewers are, by looking at pictures and stating strawman arguments on why based on the pictures and listing 10 points they are wrong?

No one is an expert on all areas. Some are experts on recordings, some on some TTs, some on some carts, some on horn drivers, some on horn speakers, some on cones, some on panels, some on SETs, some on SS amps, etc, some in more category than one, some on overall set up of some types of systems, not all. For me expertise includes experience, the ability to investigate and learn, and having the reasonability to communicate your findings to the broader forum without non-sonic agendas (which are not always commercial, often ego based).

 

[the sound of Tao]

It is not about expertise. Amir should just list his activities and process of listening and judging the components. He seems to be taking a path where he has not even heard the Lamm, and deciding what amplifier is best and who is the expert. At least go and verify some data points. He may be right or wrong, there is always a 50:50 being either.

No one is an expert on all areas. Some are experts on recordings, some on some TTs, some on some carts, some on horn drivers, some on horn speakers, some on cones, some on panels, some on SETs, some on SS amps, etc, some in more category than one, some on overall set up of some types of systems, not all. For me expertise includes experience, the ability to investigate and learn, and having the reasonability to communicate your findings to the broader forum without non-sonic agendas (which are not always commercial, often ego based).

That is what I was getting to… that his confirmation base in his judgement by accepting David’s approach and proselytising on it unquestioningly invalidates any expertise in understanding expertise… and then has TAD which is not a natural tasting spinach in any one’s language.

 

[bonzo75]

That is what I was getting to… that his confirmation base in his judgement by accepting David’s approach and proselytising on it unquestioningly invalidates any expertise in understanding expertise… and then has TAD which is not a natural spinach in any one’s language.

Perfectly stated.

 

[Argonaut]

Assimilation by remote , I had no idea that Borg technology had advanced beyond physical contact only !