Audio Critique

[Amir]

The sound of tao & Bonzo

you are trying to judge me (or my TAD system) not my ideas and this is off topic.

I have shared my ideas you can read my posts and if you have any answer to my claims please share here.

 

[PeterA]

Amir is sharing his thoughts on reviews and how he thinks people interested in audio should approach the hobby if they want to improve and learn. He has experience and has clearly thought about this stuff. He recognizes others who can help. He is putting forth his philosophy and approach.

Few people can identify an approach and go on to dissect and explain it. He is making the effort to do this. Others do not have to agree. Perhaps rather than just dismissing it or putting it down, offer an alternative approach and set of values. Define them and explain them. It is easy to be negative and criticize others.

I and others asked Amir to share his thoughts about this stuff. I appreciate that he is making the effort to do so.

 

[bonzo75]

It is easy to be negative and criticize others.

That is his approach

 

[hopkins]

Amir is sharing his thoughts on reviews and how he thinks people interested in audio should approach the hobby if they want to improve and learn. He has experience and has clearly thought about this stuff. He recognizes others who can help. He is putting forth his philosophy and approach.

Few people can identify an approach and go on to dissect and explain it. He is making the effort to do this. Others do not have to agree. Perhaps rather than just dismissing it or putting it down, offer an alternative approach and set of values. Define them and explain them. It is easy to be negative and criticize others.

I and others asked Amir to share his thoughts about this stuff. I appreciate that he is making the effort to do so.

My own comments were meant just as a warning to "newbies" following this approach. To summarize, ask 3 different "experts" and you'll end up with 3 completely different systems. The key point is understanding what type of sound and system suits each individual, it is not that simple. If we do find someone with a lot of experience and who is "in tune" with our own view, then great. The risk is going down one path only to realize later that it's not the right one.

 

[Amir]

bonzo

where is your answers to my ideas?


I also did not get any answer from Michael Fremer.

Now My friend and Me are working on TAD Photography and I will back you soon :

 

[bonzo75]

bonzo

where is your answers to my ideas?


I also did not get any answer from Michael Fremer.

You need to put some content that stimulates people to reply with content. You reap what you sow. There are no ideas at the moment.

 

[PeterA]

That is his approach

He is criticizing and offering an alternative. All you guys seem to do is criticize and offer nothing instead.

 

[PeterA]

You need to put some content that stimulates people to reply with content. You reap what you sow. There are no ideas at the moment.

Just read the first page of this thread. Amir lays out his entire approach in about 10 long posts. What do you mean there are no ideas? The discussion got sidetracked about the definition of an expert. Where else will you find what Amir is laying out in the first couple pages of this thread.

Yes, Amir is criticizing the industry, reviews specifically, and offering us his alternative. You don’t have to agree with him but if you criticize him what is your alternative? I guess people don’t like the fact that Amir identifies Jim Smith and David Karmeli as examples of audiophile experts with superior knowledge and experience who can offer help to others.

 

[bonzo75]

Just read the first page of this thread. Amir lays out his entire approach in about 10 long posts. What do you mean there are no ideas?

No that's very strawman.

 

[PeterA]

No that's very strawman.

Can you explain why you think posts 18 through 22 are strawman arguments?

 

[bonzo75]

Can you explain why you think posts 18 through 22 are strawman arguments?

So the first 18 are?

 

[wil]

The etymology of the word expert from etymology online…

expert (adj.)
late 14c., "having had experience… directly from Latin expertus (contracted from *experitus), "tried, proved, known by experience," past participle of experiri "to try, test," from ex "out of" (see ex-) + peritus "experienced, tested," from PIE *per-yo-, suffixed form of root *per- (3) "to try, risk."


As opposed to just having knowledge or information from having only read or been told the actual validation for being an expert only comes with moving past received knowledge and by trialling and experiencing for the self. I suppose the risk mentioned is you then allow yourself the opportunity to realise your researched knowledge base and assumptions can just be wrong… that you have tested truly and you observe the limits of both your knowledge and your experience.

There are guys here who know a lot about specific things but being expert is specifically subject matter limited. In teaching being a SME (subject matter expert) maps to a very specific set of criteria (unit by unit based rather than a whole of course expertise). As a scientist I’m sure you completely get that Al.

I always find it disappointing when people with some genuine specific engineering or science background or expertise with a very niche limited range of experiences and preferences use this as some kind of justification to bluff and puff up and stretch their expertise well outside of their actual knowledge base and real expertise and experience.

Well said. This is evident all too often. Ego inflation.

 

[bonzo75]

Can you explain why you think posts 18 through 22 are strawman arguments?

Because that is a laundry list. We can do many laundry lists. There are endless debates on each if those list items across the forum - vibration control, AC quality, etc. Why state what is all written a 100 times? And once he states the list, why is one right?

What does this post 22 below even mean: His principle is that we have to ask David? Lol, why is Amir writing then. Do you really think one of us would write with pompous air a para that goes "Cartridge is very important. I have limited cartridge experience. Ask Fremer".

This is actually what Amir wrote - and you liked it. What content or idea is he adding? If he wants to add value, he should try out the vibration ideas that David suggested, compare it to others, and tell us his findings. WTF is the below - we all read this forum and know who has written what where and can search.

Audio Critique

4. Mixing and matching of other audio components after Choosing power amplifier and Speaker when you choose your room and speaker and amplifier then you can go for Pre amplifier and DAC and Transport and Turntable and phonostage and ... 4.1 all voltage ranges should be match , for example the...

www.whatsbestforum.com

"Some tunes like considering vibration control

Vibration control is very important , turntables and speakers generate mechanical vibration and you can ask your questions from david (@ddk) he is very expert .

my vibration control experience is very limited.
It seems many vibration control devices are not good for natural sound. Again I should say my experience is very limited and you can ask your questions from david."

 

[Rensselaer]

I did not see anywhere in your initial posts that you were only looking for subjectivist solutions to the problems you outlined. I will bow out from making further comments...

Henrich3, ripped off! Subjective must eliminate all possible bias to be valid, please don't drop out of the conversation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I and others asked Amir to share his thoughts about this stuff. I appreciate that he is making the effort to do so.

+1

 

[PeterA]

Because that is a laundry list. We can do many laundry lists. There are endless debates on each if those list items across the forum - vibration control, AC quality, etc. Why state what is all written a 100 times? And once he states the list, why is one right?

What does this even mean: His principle is that we have to ask David? Lol, why is Amir writing then. Do you really think one of us would write with pompous air a para that goes "Cartridge is very important. I have limited cartridge experience. Ask Fremer".

This is actually what Amir wrote - and you liked it. What content or idea is he adding? If he wants to add value, he should try out the vibration ideas that David suggested, compare it to others, and tell us his findings. WTF is the below - we all read this forum and know who has written what where and can search.

Audio Critique

4. Mixing and matching of other audio components after Choosing power amplifier and Speaker when you choose your room and speaker and amplifier then you can go for Pre amplifier and DAC and Transport and Turntable and phonostage and ... 4.1 all voltage ranges should be match , for example the...

www.whatsbestforum.com

"Some tunes like considering vibration control

Vibration control is very important , turntables and speakers generate mechanical vibration and you can ask your questions from david (@ddk) he is very expert .

my vibration control experience is very limited.
It seems many vibration control devices are not good for natural sound. Again I should say my experience is very limited and you can ask your questions from david."

Bonzo, This thread started as a critique about the value of audio reviews. Amir asked if people wanted to read his thoughts on why industry reviews do not hold much value in his opinion. I and others asked him to share his thoughts, and he started this thread.

That laundry list is what many consider important for setting up a good sounding system. It may seem obvious or conventional, but this is in the context of why most reviews lack value. He is suggesting that many review systems do not take all of these factors into account. Later, the discussion expands to his ideas of why these things matter for all systems if the goal is better sound.

Anyway, we clearly do not agree. I appreciate the effort put forth in this thread. To me, it seems comprehensive and well thought out. I "liked" that post because I understand where Amir is coming from. I learned the importance of vibration control during my experiments with my old system. I did not know much about it, but with ddk and Bazelio, we pushed through some solutions that worked for us to give us more natural sound. I still don't know much about it, but with ddk's help, I found a solution that works for me.

That is not the same as asking Fremer about cartridge set up. He says to get a scope and measure 92. I tried that one. Then I learned a different approach from ddk based on specific adjustments and how they affect the sound. The solution is found by listening. I prefer that approach. Sure, both are considered experts. Now, I know how to do it myself and can repeat it in different settings. All I need is a couple of LPs and my ears and an adjustable arm and resolving system.

This thread is a critique about audio reviews and system building approach. When stuck, seek out the audiophile expert for help. The distinction between natural/musical systems and accurate/analytical systems is also pretty interesting. Perhaps Amir will discuss that further.

 

[bonzo75]

I learned the importance of vibration control during my experiments with my old system. I did not know much about it, but with ddk and Bazelio, we pushed through some solutions that worked for us to give us more natural sound.

yes I read those, but you and Bazelio did some experiments with David’s vibration suggestions, you visited David multiple times and tried his stuff out. Amir has done none of that. He has not documented any findings like you did

 

[Rensselaer]

I would like to share my idea about Right/Trusted Audio Critique in the High End Audio because Most Magazines need a better understanding of Audio Reviewing.

I ask this question because me (when I was young) and my friends have spent many many times/efforts/money according to (and trusting) Magazine (TAS/Stereophile/6moon/...) Reviews and the result was awful.

The question is :

Could we write a useful audio Critique/Review ? if yes How it could be?


my answer is yes but let me describe it in the next post.

My limited experience matched your second paragraph (and continues much the same the more experience I obtain). Regardless of whether or not the OP wishes to discuss objective and subjective perceptions of sound quality in relation to audio critique (at any level), I feel it is essential to divide reviews along such lines in order for same to hold any validity. Example; I used to subscribe to Stereophile. I read with great interest product reviews. I would look at the measurements taken (which I didn't understand but thought they wouldn't be included if not important) and then try to relate those measurements with the outcome/conclusion of the review. What this taught me is that there is no relationship between measurements and sound...I would never be able to predict the sound quality of a product by first studying its' measurements. Only by listening to a device was I able to determine (for myself anyway) the sound quality, making me a subjective audiophile. Measurements, I guess, are for objective audiophiles.

A great deal of debates I have read on these pages seem to me to clearly identify who is an objective audiophile, and who subjective. Objective audiophiles argue the superiority of digital over analogue because of measurements; lower distortion, greater dynamics, better separation, lower noise floor, whereas the subjective audiophiles simply say "it doesn't sound real though". Same analogue played over low-powered SETs and high-sensitivity Horns for the subjectives, high-definition digital through mega-watt transistor amplifiers and low-efficiency speaker arrays for the objectives.

As long as there are two completely different listeners, there must be two completely different methods of reviews (listening vs measurements). Until that is sorted, reviewers will never get it right.

 

[microstrip]

yes they are experts when they answer questions on their own design, and compared to people like us who cannot design.

however how will you decide if Dave Wilson’s expertise is greater than 15 other designers, or if his design has some flaws? To do so you need to understand all 15 yourself and be quite good yourself. And based on the Wilson pass logic you quoted, all the reviewers Amir is trashing, is an expert on his own writing.

In reality, the "expertise" in the high-end is mostly measured by the success of the designer/manufacturer/dealer/writer in real audiophile world, not just in the very small WBF audiophile community or internet popularity methods.

I consider myself an amateur audiophile and find the WBF epithet shown under our nicks a funny exercise of administrative power ...

 

[PeterA]

As long as there are two completely different listeners, there must be two completely different methods of reviews (listening vs measurements). Until that is sorted, reviewers will never get it right.

Mark, I do not think it is so bifurcated. The other day I helped set up a friends system. We did not get through the turntable but we were listening to digital CD player, Lamm SET, and high-efficiency vintage cone box speakers. Not horns, not vinyl.

The sound was incredible and very natural and real sounding. Nothing to do with the two camps you are setting up. Natural sound is not about vinyl and horns. It is an approach to a very particular type of sound that can be achieved in different ways. Like Amir says, it is about proper selection of components and set up in the room.