Audio Research Ref system with SF Stradivari

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day gentlemen,

Yes, this is what ARC has decided to do with all their new Ref range of products. They want people to so call "upgrade" to ARC preamplifiers. So even a person owned a 20grand preamp with no XLR inputs, they would have to go for a ARC pre to enjoy the power amp...? That is what ARC chose to do and I'm afraid they are losing out.

I was very very interested in the new REF75, and it is affordable here in Australia. However, no go there for me because I will not part from my c-jACT2 pre.
Therefore, I would just have to enjoy someone else's ARC REF75 on their system. Good, another excuse to leave the house, ha!

Ref to Microstrip: ok mate whatever you say "parallel sections used in the triode amplifier" sounds good. The KT120 in the LP275M I don't think anyone has done this, nor wants to try because of the many tubes involved in replacing (16 tubes!), plus the cost of the monoblocks already considering...
If you do have the means of trying this out, I'd say go for it, Lew Johnson himself has confirmed that the KT120 is way better in all aspects compared to the 6550. The only reason c-j didn't use the KT120 before was because it was still in testing in audio applications, although it was around earlier. Whereas the 6550 has been around for decades and the tube versions/brands used on c-j power amps were reliable, hence they did want to change just yet. Now c-j does, and so do many others.

I previously had the Manley Ref350 monoblocks (very old design from David Manley at VTL); replaced all 16 tubes of 6550's with KT90's. The sound was awful! So in this regard the KT series tubes were probably not preferred by c-j at the time. But when a new KT series came out from Tungsol, which is the KT120, many things changed for the better. I really have not auditioned the KT150 as yet properly, but on my next trip to S'pore I certainly plan to.

Ref to Mep: I think your come back to tubes was probably one of the smartest choices you've made, and that combination you already have, the Ref5SE and Ref75 is state of the art! I wouldn't worry about the fuss too much mate, rather sit back light that cigar and enjoy your scotch, Oh! and of course the music.

Cheers to all, RJ

 

[DaveyF]

G'day gentlemen,

Yes, this is what ARC has decided to do with all their new Ref range of products. They want people to so call "upgrade" to ARC preamplifiers. So even a person owned a 20grand preamp with no XLR inputs, they would have to go for a ARC pre to enjoy the power amp...? That is what ARC chose to do and I'm afraid they are losing out.




Cheers to all, RJ

I would totally agree with you RJ. Seems that someone in the marketing dept at ARC may have erred. It will be very interesting to see if ARC rectifies this oversight in the near future...I'm betting that they will.

 

[mep]

I would totally agree with you RJ. Seems that someone in the marketing dept at ARC may have erred. It will be very interesting to see if ARC rectifies this oversight in the near future...I'm betting that they will.

And I bet they won't because I don't believe it's an "oversight." I think it was and is a deliberate engineering decision made by ARC. The REF 75 is not the first amp that ARC has made that strictly has XLR inputs. If those in the past were a 'mistake,' why would ARC do it again? The answer is because they want to. There are tons of preamps/line stages on the market that have balanced inputs and outputs.

 

[rbbert]

Why does the VSi75 have only SE inputs?

 

[mep]

Why does the VSi75 have only SE inputs?

Umm, because it's an integrated amplifier and there are no external connections between the preamp and power amp section? The real answer is that someone would have to ask ARC why they only have SE inputs. The answer could be as simple as they didn't think the target market for this integrated amp would use balanced sources with it.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The KT120 in the LP275M I don't think anyone has done this, nor wants to try because of the many tubes involved in replacing (16 tubes!), plus the cost of the monoblocks already considering...
If you do have the means of trying this out, I'd say go for it, Lew Johnson himself has confirmed that the KT120 is way better in all aspects compared to the 6550. The only reason c-j didn't use the KT120 before was because it was still in testing in audio applications, although it was around earlier. Whereas the 6550 has been around for decades and the tube versions/brands used on c-j power amps were reliable, hence they did want to change just yet. Now c-j does, and so do many others.

Just an additional information - currently in Europe Tungsol KT120s are only about 20% more expensive than 6550s. And my experience with KT120's in ARC amplifiers also shows they are quite reliable. Perhaps I will soon have the opportunity to try the KT120's in a pair of LP275M.

 

[rbbert]

Umm, because it's an integrated amplifier and there are no external connections between the preamp and power amp section? The real answer is that someone would have to ask ARC why they only have SE inputs. The answer could be as simple as they didn't think the target market for this integrated amp would use balanced sources with it.

The lack of balanced inputs has been (somewhat) frequently complained about. If in fact the circuitry is fully balanced it makes little sense not to include at least one balanced input. I know the lack of one removes this amp from my consideration.

 

[mep]

The lack of balanced inputs has been (somewhat) frequently complained about. If in fact the circuitry is fully balanced it makes little sense not to include at least one balanced input. I know the lack of one removes this amp from my consideration.

Seriously, I do not think the VSi75 is a balanced design which is why it doesn't have any balanced inputs. I went to ARC's website and read their description of this integrated amp and they don't mention anything about this being a balanced design. It has the same output transformers as the REF 75 and the power transformer is designed for the KT-120 tubes. I wonder how many truly balanced integrated amps are on the market vice some integrated amps that have XLR inputs but aren't really balanced?

 

[rbbert]

I've read elsewhere that the circuit design for the VSi75's amp section is virtually identical to the Ref75; I don't know anything more than that. As for the other part of your comment, all the integrateds I have looked at with balanced inputs (admittedly only a few, all in the $5k - $15k range) appear to be balanced, dual mono designs.

 

[mep]

It's the "appeared to be" that would need further investigation. Many amps and preamps have XLR inputs and outputs, but they are not truly balanced designs. I'm sure there probably are some truly balanced integrated amps on the market, it's just not a category I have ever shopped in and really know that much about them.

I would argue that the VSi75 amp section is not virtually identical to the REF 75. It does have the same output transformers and coupling caps as the REF 75 as well as the KT-120 tubes, but it's not a balanced design. Also, if you look at the weight of the VSi75 amp and compare it to the REF75 (36.4 lbs for the VSi75 vice 47 lbs for the REF 75), you can see that something was left out when you consider the VSi75 has a preamp built in and the REF 75 is strictly a power amp.

 

[rbbert]

The ARC website says nothing about the Ref75 being fully balanced either...

 

[DaveyF]

The ARC website says nothing about the Ref75 being fully balanced either...

That is just a minor detail, LOL.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Good evening gentlemen,

Nice to hear all the expert comments and very well stated opinions. I have certainly learnt a lot from reading all of yours, and thanks!

Getting back to the ARC Ref series system and Strads, after all that is what the thread was about. From the early humble beginnings of my high-end audio interests, ranging from Jamo, Cambridge Audio, Cayin, Jas Audio, Audiolab, Leek, Nad, Arcam, Musical Fidelity, Carver, Energy, Quad, Marantz, Conrad Johnson, Manley, Rogers, Mission, Paradigm, Apogee, Magnepan, Infinity, Melos, Cary, Wilson, Lamm, McIntosh, and now Audio Research (these were previous brands and systems that I owned) some I cannot even remember; I will say this though:

Some of the systems I've matched together have given me great satisfaction. Listening satisfaction to me is soothing, easy on the ears, highly musical, natural liveliness on vocals, and must have the absolute natural sound. I've had systems that produce tremendous bass, thunderous transients and great acceleration/ impact but to me these were "over-exaggerated". This type of sound I could only listen to for a few minutes, probably half an hour the most until my ears start to ring...
Since 99% of my listening is during weekends, from mid-night up until the wee hours of the morning, I want the system to be able to present a smooth sound and not a blast of a sound...

To me the new ARC Ref system partnered with Sonus Faber speakers is a real treat to listen to. Their latest iterations, the 5SE & Ref75, and the RefCD9 together with the Stradivari is one of those combinations that can deliver the smoothness of a true musical performance with the right balance. Not too much bass, just the right midrange, and smooth highs. Annoying midrange or ear shattering highs is what I can't bear.

This system combination is utterly non-fatiguing, totally captivating and delivers the absolute sound that I am looking for.
Yes, it may lack the high impact compared to Wilson's or Focul's and this I know because I used to own Alexandria's before. It may also lack the ultimate speed of electrostats or the acceleration of horns, or the best dynamic drivers money can buy... Whatever!
One thing for sure is that if you are looking for a great system that delivers "music" and delivers this music with a "pleasing" tone, then you will find this ARC + Strad combination a joy to listen to.
The Ref75 drove the Strads with ease, ample power on hand; compared to the Ref250's I couldn't really tell the difference because I personally don't listen to loud music, only soft to moderate. I had to keep telling the dealer chap to turn it down. He was surprised and pleased to see that I was a careful listener, and not one of those people who really wanted to blast the system out for all its glory...

The only dam problem I had was that I couldn't listen to it for endless hours since they had to close the store!
If I was to choose a second system this would be it, and this is definitely a true "Reference" system in every sense of the word.
Well done ARC! I truly hope they keep this one design for a long time.
Cheers, RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Just an additional information - currently in Europe Tungsol KT120s are only about 20% more expensive than 6550s. And my experience with KT120's in ARC amplifiers also shows they are quite reliable. Perhaps I will soon have the opportunity to try the KT120's in a pair of LP275M.

Yes, Definitely mate. If you could get hold of the KT120 Tungsol for a great deal, I say go for it by all means.

I have auditioned the LP75 and LP275M at great lengths with the Quads, and that is one main reason I eventually bought the 2905's. I listened to this system for nearly 3 months before making the final decision. We also changed tubes only on the LP75 and it was fantastic! Compared overall the 60SE & LP75 sound with KT120's was not much of a difference, they were both remarkable driving the Quads. Compared to the LP275m's, of course they had far greater power and drive, which I really did not require. So all in all, I just kept my little mv60se and enjoyed the KT120's in it.

I also did this for another reason, knowing that c-j will put out a new SOTA amplifier very soon. And that series is called the ART, and now I am getting ready for one of these ART amps because I know that this is simply an outstanding design. The new ARTsa with the Quads is an extraordinary sound indeed. I know because I tried it out at home! Obviously I nearly chewed off my nails since I had to return the gorgeous thing...

Still saving as much as I can, hopefully should be nearly there by Dec, unless my daughter wants a new trombone... or an iPad, new iPhone, new room, new house, new puppy/kitten or some dam new thing that would spoil the purchase of the ART, aaah! Oh! geez I forgot the other half, the good wife! She'd probably want a new diamond ring, that's it I'm really done for...

Really envy those of you who aren't hitched, or have kids for that matter...
Anyway to have family is a great thing, after all they do deserve the best!
Cheers mates, RJ

 

[mep]

That is just a minor detail, LOL.

LOL? I don't know what's so funny. Page 6 of the REF 75 owner's manual under "Connections":

"The REF 75 uses a fully balanced circuit topology and has a pair of balanced XLR input connectors on the rear panel. It therefore requires a balanced preamplifier output as provided by most Audio Research preamplifiers."

 

[joeinid]

RJ,

Thank you so much for your input and opinion. The Strads are one of two speakers that had a profound effect on me. Thank you for rekindling that passion and helping me realize what's important.

 

[DaveyF]

LOL? I don't know what's so funny. QUOTE]

Well then let me tell you....
It's a joke that anyone would think that a company that is turning away even one customer is doing the right thing. As one can CLEARLY see, the OP is turned off by the fact that he would need to buy a whole new preamplifier in order to use this amp. I happen to feel exactly the same way.
IF you feel this is good business practice in any way, well my friend...that's where we differ.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

RJ,

Thank you so much for your input and opinion. The Strads are one of two speakers that had a profound effect on me. Thank you for rekindling that passion and helping me realize what's important.

No worries at all Joe, glad to be of any help whenever possible.
All the best for your quest with the Strads, also do let me know if you get a chance to finally audition the Quads if at all.
Cheers mate, have a good one!
RJ

 

[microstrip]

(...) The Ref75 drove the Strads with ease, ample power on hand; compared to the Ref250's I couldn't really tell the difference because I personally don't listen to loud music, only soft to moderate. I had to keep telling the dealer chap to turn it down. He was surprised and pleased to see that I was a careful listener, and not one of those people who really wanted to blast the system out for all its glory... (...)

This is a crucial point. Our hearing has a logarithmic scale, and the level you listen is critical in the choice of the amplifier. One of the reasons many people (and me) loves the Strads is that if provided with adequate power they will energize and play music with it full glory in your room. Although I also listen mostly at moderate levels, sometimes I love to feel the power of music - being chamber, symphonic or ancient music. And then you find that the bite of brass instruments, even the tambourines, need power to sound "sparkling" and have scale.

An often forgotten aspect it the room. I have found that irrespective of size, some rooms need a lot of power, others sound great with a few watts. IMHO, most of the rime there are no simple rules, people have to try.

When I owned Strads I tried them with the DartZeel NH108, and although it was a good match in electrical terms I was never fully pleased with the system - it lacked glory as you say!

 

[DaveyF]

Micro, I would be interested in your opinion of the differences between your current Wilson Alexia's and the Strads. BTW, I completely agree with your statement about the room.