Bill-I’m not itching for a fight with you even though you never pass up a chance to take a shot at me. I went to their website and read their dope on the speakers. They intended them to be used on stands for a normal stereo set-up along with their subwoofer which they highly recommend to use with the speakers. They also intended them to be used on a desktop with a computer system and their website shows examples of each set up. There were a few reviews I saw where they were hooked up in a “regular” stereo system. If they sound real good from 3’ away, I don’t know how they can sound real good from 8’-10’ away and vice-versa. So as you so clearly pointed out, I guess I don't actually know anything about what the speakers were designed for. Thanks for clarifying that.
Audiophiles and our prejudices
- Thread starter FrantzM
- Start date
Bill-I’m not itching for a fight with you even though you never pass up a chance to take a shot at me. I went to their website and read their dope on the speakers. They intended them to be used on stands for a normal stereo set-up along with their subwoofer which they highly recommend to use with the speakers. They also intended them to be used on a desktop with a computer system and their website shows examples of each set up. There were a few reviews I saw where they were hooked up in a “regular” stereo system. If they sound real good from 3’ away, I don’t know how they can sound real good from 8’-10’ away and vice-versa. So as you so clearly pointed out, I guess I don't actually know anything about what the speakers were designed for. Thanks for clarifying that.
So much hyperbole, so little time. Here's what I said:
"Compete"..."in most cases"....I don't deal in absolutes, Mark, I know better. I'm sure there are small passive speakers, amplified well enough, that would hold their own with some of the best active monitors. The price of the amplification alone would probably exceed the entire active system, but I'm sure they'd hold their own. In absolute (though probably not audible) terms, however, I would expect the best active monitors to have lower distortion, better channel separation, and more precise driver control. And at the price of a pair of Q-1s and enough amp to make them competetive with active designs, we would, indeed, be talking about some very fine active monitors.
And by the way, the ADM 9.1s are not near field monitors or pro audio monitors and are not designed to be used in a near field configuration. They work that way, I enjoy them that way, but they are not that way by design. In fact, few "near field" monitors, even of the pro persuasion that are marketed for studio use in the near field, are in any way physically limited to that set-up. They do not typically have narrow dispersion or issues with projecting volume into a room beyond the limitations you'd expect from any speaker of their size.
This is an old audiophile's tale.
Tim
re the Q-1 vs the MM Micro-1 .. Where they in the same room driven by same gear and auditioned using same music?
On the subject of Crown and Crest, I wouldn't go as far as proclaiming that these are superior to the better or the most extreme audiophile amplifers but, what about our midle of the road amps? Have anyone given them a review in an audiophile setting driving audiophile speakers> As far as I know a person at AVS, Tzucc I believe tried the Crown on his X-1 and find them adequate compared to his Krell... Not superior but not the kind of reproduction that would have him running out of the door ...
To me there is a more important point and it is not only about price but about competition and what it brings to any field. better product, let's put better price aside for now although competition does that too. Informed and open-minded customers also push the boundaries, and do get better products. If we take a minute and pause, ;let's ask ourselves the question. What "certifies" a product as "audiophile"? What guarantees an audiophile that a product is worth his while? Brand? price? Reputation? I would have loved to see something more objective than these, unfortunately we, audiophiles, refuse to even consider it...Thus my mention of the Integra and yamaha receivers which I had the opportunity to listen to. Honest sounding units... I heard a Lavry 11 something and liked what it did. The Apogee mini-Dac i also heard in a decent audiophile system and it was very good.. I aven't heard the AVi we are discussing about but I heard a lowly , vulgarly cheap behringer active monitor with a Heil-Type tweeter and was pleasantly surprised. I have put together several systems for friends and one of them was based on the Mackie 824.. Any open-minded audiophiles would have been surprised by the sound of this system. NO! it doesn't challenge the better audiophiles mini-monitors I have heard especially when those were driven by good electronics but, the Mackie would challenge and surpass several audiophile-based system costing up to 5K and even more. They provide quite windows on the real thing. In many ways they do better than more audiophile-centric systems I 've heard. I am seriously trying to audition a Korg MR2000 (?).. I may find it a good price; our own Bruce B. thinks greatly of it. He thinks its sounded better than anything under 10K he's heard ... Lofty praise from someone who straddles both world .. And there are other examples .. Several more example, the Weiss Pro DAC-2 being one of them and the Lavry, DAD, etc...
If the goal is to bring the music to our homes then, any products that accomplish itself of this task should be worthy of our consideration, regardless of its provenance.
On the subject of Crown and Crest, I wouldn't go as far as proclaiming that these are superior to the better or the most extreme audiophile amplifers but, what about our midle of the road amps? Have anyone given them a review in an audiophile setting driving audiophile speakers> As far as I know a person at AVS, Tzucc I believe tried the Crown on his X-1 and find them adequate compared to his Krell... Not superior but not the kind of reproduction that would have him running out of the door ...
To me there is a more important point and it is not only about price but about competition and what it brings to any field. better product, let's put better price aside for now although competition does that too. Informed and open-minded customers also push the boundaries, and do get better products. If we take a minute and pause, ;let's ask ourselves the question. What "certifies" a product as "audiophile"? What guarantees an audiophile that a product is worth his while? Brand? price? Reputation? I would have loved to see something more objective than these, unfortunately we, audiophiles, refuse to even consider it...Thus my mention of the Integra and yamaha receivers which I had the opportunity to listen to. Honest sounding units... I heard a Lavry 11 something and liked what it did. The Apogee mini-Dac i also heard in a decent audiophile system and it was very good.. I aven't heard the AVi we are discussing about but I heard a lowly , vulgarly cheap behringer active monitor with a Heil-Type tweeter and was pleasantly surprised. I have put together several systems for friends and one of them was based on the Mackie 824.. Any open-minded audiophiles would have been surprised by the sound of this system. NO! it doesn't challenge the better audiophiles mini-monitors I have heard especially when those were driven by good electronics but, the Mackie would challenge and surpass several audiophile-based system costing up to 5K and even more. They provide quite windows on the real thing. In many ways they do better than more audiophile-centric systems I 've heard. I am seriously trying to audition a Korg MR2000 (?).. I may find it a good price; our own Bruce B. thinks greatly of it. He thinks its sounded better than anything under 10K he's heard ... Lofty praise from someone who straddles both world .. And there are other examples .. Several more example, the Weiss Pro DAC-2 being one of them and the Lavry, DAD, etc...
If the goal is to bring the music to our homes then, any products that accomplish itself of this task should be worthy of our consideration, regardless of its provenance.
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Frantz-I don't disagree, you just need to weed out the wheat from the chaff. Finding an amp "adequate" is not the same as finding an amp outstanding. My pair of PL 400 Series 2 amps are way more than adequate, but they don't sound like my KSA-250 either.
I'm all for finding outstanding pro components at bargain prices though.
I'm all for finding outstanding pro components at bargain prices though.
^ I'd have to agree with that; depending on your listening room's dimensions, and the recording themselves (varies from one to another).
Old Listener-Maybe you were napping during many of the posts by Gary who talks about driver integration and how far you have to be away from a particular set of speakers before you stop hearing them as individual drivers and hear the sum of the whole. Or do you have some evidence that you can sit on top of speakers that were designed to be listened to from at least 8' away and you still here really good integration of the drivers?
Frantz-No, they were in separate rooms with very different gear. The gear was of excellent quality in both cases though and I did get to hear both with tape. In the case of the MM1 speakers, I was able to hear it with an ATR-102 playing a 30 ips tape. Really, it's a miracle that anyone can get good sound out of a small hotel room.
It was just my opinion that the Magico Q-1 speakers are higher fidelity than the MM1 speakers and they better be with a cost that is 10x greater. Since money doesn't buy you a linear progression in sound quality in this hobby, they certainly don't sound 10x better. I'm not sure if they sound 2x better, but I'm certain they sound better to me.
Going back to the theme of this thread, one of the prejudices that got knocked on the head for me a long time ago was that pro sound was always mediocre. Yes, the worst sound I've ever experienced is the majority of PA setups, but on the other side the most impressive sound I have ever heard was also from properly sorted out concert volume installations. Well over 20 years ago a Canadian Expo presentation: superb dynamics, perfectly coherent presentation, vastly superior to the majority of ultra-expensive high end systems I've heard. And a theatre musical with a full big band going through the house system: so often this can sound hideously distorted and shrieky; but in this case the sound was clear as a bell, treble was superbly clean and the overall effect was an absolute hugeness to the sound. So when I go to a dealer and listen to a demo of the latest OTT equipment I can only laugh under my breath ...
Frank
Frank
Tim,
I am sure that you would love to listen to Quad ESL63 in near field . They seem perfect for near field as they emulate a perfect point source radiator, and have a very controlled dispersion.
Some of my preferred classical recordings were monitored using the ESL63 in this way and more than a few sound engineers use QUAD ESL63 PRO (a more rugged version) for mixing and mastering. But sadly they do not fit in the console desk
...Sorry to irritate the number of you who hate hearing this, but to quote someone, "This is an old audiophile's tale". Audible integration of the drivers, irrespective of the listening distance, is the signature of a system working correctly; it's the first thing I listen for when I come upon an unknown system. Of course, 99.9% of setups fail, including my own much of the time, but that doesn't mean it's a fact of physics that drivers won't integrate, because they were designed not to do so. No, the ear/brain is cleverer than the scientists and audio designers, and if the right clues are there then the sound will integrate whether you think it should or can, or want it to, or not ...
Frank
Really? Funny the manufacturer pictures them used in just such a setting.
Attachments
Being an "audiophile system" is not a proof of quality. Surely sometimes a pro active speaker can surpass an "audiophile-based system costing up to 5K and even more". IMHO isolated cases do not create rules.
But I think most non professional listeners, who are prepared to pay for quality, prefer to listen to music in systems including what is generally accepted as audiophile gear than in pro equipment.
I know of two distributors who simultaneously carry business in audiophile and pro gear. One of them clearly says that customers and products of both types currently do not "mix".
BTW, as far as remember Bruce B. comment about the Korg MR2000 specifically addressed DSD recording/playing systems, not PCM DACs - it as an answer to my previous post.
You appear to be citing Gary's posts on the minimum listening distance for a particular speaker design. Perhaps you missed the distinction between a minimum distance and a maximum distance.
A large speaker with drivers much farther apart than the ADM 9.1s might not have good driver integration at short listening distances. Nothing new there. So a speaker that works well at an 8-10' listening distance MAY not work at a short listening distance.
The ADM 9.1s are two way speakers with the drivers close together. If driver integration of a speaker design works for a 3' listening distance, it should not pose a problem at greater distances. Here is a hypothesis to be disproved: a speaker that works well at 9' MAY also work well at a listening distance of 3'. Here is another hypothesis to be disproved: a speaker that works well at 3' MAY also work well at a listening distance of 9'.
You asserted "If they sound real good from 3’ away, I don’t know how they can sound real good from 8’-10’ away and vice-versa."
Paraphrased:
If speakers sound good at 3', they can't sound good at 8-10'
If speakers sound good at 8-10', they can't sound good at 3'
I'll offer replacement assertions that seem to me to be defensible:
If speakers sound good at 3', they may or may not sound good at 8-10'
If speakers sound good at 8-10', they may or may not sound good at 3'
These assertions don't disqualify the ADM 9.1s, near-field monitors or any other two way speakers from being applicable for listening at 8-10'.
I asked you to supply either theory or experimental evidence to back up your assertion. Your reply suggests that you didn't fully understand your own assertion or my reply. You didn't apply the idea of driver integration correctly and your use of logic is faulty.
I'll skip a comeback about who's been napping.
Bill
I don’t think so.
I think that is what I said except I left out the “may.”
I guess “MAY” is the operative word here.
I will agree that they “may or may not sound good.”
Like you said, they may or may not sound good at further distances. I agree with that.
I don’t listen to small two-way speakers in my system that have pictures from the OEM showing them being used with a computer on a table. I think that speakers are either designed to be listened to in the near-field or far-field. Now we can debate how close is near-field and how far is far-field. I’m pretty sure that if a speaker is small enough to fit on top of a computer desk and provides good imaging that it probably won’t sound as good trying to load a big room and heard from a distance of at least 8’.
Unless you have your mep attack dog teeth out for cleaning, I don’t know why you would pass up another chance to try and slam me.
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Horns, gentlemen... horns.
I can honestly say the most completely shocking and humbling experience I've yet had with hi-fi, was the day, 3 years ago now, that I hauled in my 'home-made' fostex based BLH speakers, set them up,(against the long wall, no less)! plonked my butt down, and played the first cut of 'round about midnight' on my very humble setup.
I know, without doubt, and it is now obvious to me when listening at higher than average levels, that these speakers are nowhere NEAR 'flat' and I'm sure they do not measure well, but in the room, with the amp, and good material, there ain't many places I'd rather be!
I can honestly say the most completely shocking and humbling experience I've yet had with hi-fi, was the day, 3 years ago now, that I hauled in my 'home-made' fostex based BLH speakers, set them up,(against the long wall, no less)! plonked my butt down, and played the first cut of 'round about midnight' on my very humble setup.
I know, without doubt, and it is now obvious to me when listening at higher than average levels, that these speakers are nowhere NEAR 'flat' and I'm sure they do not measure well, but in the room, with the amp, and good material, there ain't many places I'd rather be!
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